Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.
Posted On:1/18/2007 10:39pm
Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo
I concede your point, very valid. I feel that as long as you understand what is useful for a given situation and what may be...not so useful you will be ok. But I'll tell you one thing, I wouldn't want to be in upside-down guard under Pride's rules. Then again, I'm sure Ryan could probably make the most of that situation since it seems to be his "thing". Hell, I wouldn't want to be in guard with MMA rules in the states, elbows and all. Well, maybe after perfecting my rubber guard a little bit more.
Posted On:1/18/2007 11:00pm
Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
I understand your feelings, but it irks me when people assume that Hall would play his upside down guard in a real fight, or that Eduardo Telles really plans on fighting in the UFC using only his Turtle Guard, or that Shinya Aoki plans on using gogoplatas in Pride (HINT: I AM MAKING TWO OR THREE SEPARATE YET EQUALLY VALID POINTS BY INCLUDING AOKI).
"No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
Posted On:1/18/2007 11:19pm
Style: BJJ, wrestling
When training in BJJ only with the gi, I tend to favor some rather sportive techniques. When training in no-gi or MMA, I don't.
If you mix jits with hits the vulnerabilities of the more sport oriented techniques become quickly apparent.
Shut the hell up and train.
Posted On:1/18/2007 11:23pm
No way, you're a purple belt that doesn't compete professionally in MMA, you're supposed to have completely lost touch with reality.
Posted On:1/19/2007 12:13am
Basically the simple techniques don't get used because well trained opponents see them coming a mile away.
To continue on this argument, everytime a Ninjer or Larper says "my stuff won't win tourneys but I can fight on the streetz" I wanna add, "I hope you aren't fighting me on the streetz cause you gonna get raped".
Wouldn't it behoove everyone to be well rounded in all areas, sportive and basic techniques. Gearing stuff to the lowest common denominator inhibits development of noteworthy skill. Plus, its fucking boring.
And yes, after Aoki Shinya (Paraestra by the way, bitches) gogoplataed someone in MMA, we can all see the sportive moves can be money in a fight. That is, if you are a badass competitor like Aoki.
I have never heard anywhere in Japan (outside of the Larptastic BJK) talk about Self Defense. I think that it is a given that if you can **** up a trained person, you can win even easier against a untrained dickhead.
And Ryan Hall's upside down guard may be funky but his wrist control is good and his triangle is deadly. He could easily use that in a fight with someone that is relying on pounding his way out of the grapple. It happens in MMA, guys try to pound and slam out of triangles all the time but they end up taking a nap or tapping out.
Last edited by MONGO; 1/19/2007 12:21am at .
Posted On:1/19/2007 12:25am
Style: Muay Thai & BJJ
My BJJ Coach is one of the last 2 given his black belt by Carlson Gracie.
His BJJ is all about fighting, and not sport, though he's done well in both.
Posted On:1/19/2007 12:36am
Good work Coach.
Posted On:1/19/2007 12:44am
Style: Dancing the Spears
Originally Posted by MONGO
It happens in MMA, guys try to pound and slam out of triangles all the time but they end up taking a nap or tapping out.
Posted On:1/19/2007 1:35am
The point is not mine, it was Carlson's. I am just sharing it because it is indicative a certain minset that some BJJ'ers have. I suppose whether you agree with Carlson or not depends on what YOU think BJJ is.
If people want their BJJ to be sport focused , MMA focused, Self-defense focused or anything else --more power to them. BJJ is/can be different things to different people.
Mongo's argument that "the simple techniques don't get used because well trained opponents see them coming a mile away. " I don't agree with at all. Some people's basics are so good there is nothing you can do to stop them.
IF "simple didn't work" then the Jab-Cross would have been extinct from boxing a long time ago.
"Simple" not only works, it works well if you have put time into it. But "slick/sneaky" can work well too; in fact all games CAN work in BJJ. It just depends.
So Garbanzo Bean, you have no respect for the BJJ teachings of Carlson & Caique? I guess there is nothing to say then. :rolleyes:
Last edited by Spezza; 1/19/2007 1:43am at .
Posted On:1/19/2007 1:45am
Originally Posted by The Villain
The original poster has a point. The supremacy of BJJ is based on its effectivity and practicality. Some moves blur the line and we do see performances like BJ Penn vs Matt Hughes, but we also get swarms of blue belts in beginner and novive no gi divisions (see it every tourney) because they simply can't grapple without their latest gimmick. Thats not even factoring strikes in. And as far as BJJs dominance on the street goes, Royce and Rickson have had trouble with large brawlers before. That being the case, its not ridiculous to train BJJ that actually works.
All good points, but:
1.) BJJ can be practical AND have a sporting aspect. The PATRIARCHS seem uncomfortable with it, but it sure as **** hasn't hurt anything at high levels. As for the lower levels, see my next point.
2.) Sandbagging is not something you can blame on gimmicky moves. It's something you can blame on people being douchebags that would rather win than be challenged. Besides, there are plenty of gimmicky no-gi moves to go with their gimmicky gi cousins.
3.) I hope no one on this thread is implying that BJJ is the ultimate in street defense. It is, however, apparently pretty good. That is not a reason to turn it into RBSD. The Gracies' idea of a "street fight" back when they were making names for themselves was a lot more controlled than most situations tend to be.
I say do what you want with BJJ, just don't expect grappling tournament rules to protect you when someone's punching your face in. I don't, and I'll be the first to admit that I could give a **** about using BJJ for self defense. I think anyone that actually puts thought into what they train (and that's probably not a lot of people at the blue and below level for BJJ) is aware of their particular sport's (Martial Art) limitations. If not, well, not my problem.
Somehow, even with all that, I walk around feeling confident that I can take care of myself in a bad situation. I even sleep soundly at night. Crazy, huh?
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