The 'real meaning' of TKD patterns......

[StuartA]

Hi,

http://iaomas1.proboards14.com/index.cgi

Although I think the process needs some refining, the IAOMAS organisation that he founded (International Alliance of Martial Arts Schools) allows for a great deal of cross training. Here he and Bullshido tend to agree. Unfortunately his organisation appears to be stuck with that "Respect all martial artists and their styles" rubbish that could leave the organisation open to abuse.

Yes, IAOMAS does allow cross-training for those that want it and yes we are polite and respectful in the main, but that doesnt mean we dont deal with problems and those that abuse the system set up. Its far from perfect as its a free organisation that has grown further than its original purpose (as a student support system), but we have a complaints procedure and have on occassion got rid of dodgy schools etc. The main issue is, we have lots of members but it is over seen by about 7 guys willing to give their time for free and invest effort into doing so - thats not an easy task with over 600 schools! Still, we are always working on stuff int hat regards.

I haven't read the book, TKD Patterns just don't do it for me, but as far as I'm aware he's always been open about what he trains in and what he knows. I'm sure he'd actually answer any questions you have either here or on the IAOMAS forums.

I try to be as open as possible. Ive nothing to hide - thanks. I also understand patterns arnt everyones cup of tea as well, thats fine. My hope for the book was to hopefully give some more depth to those that already train them (ie. TKD peeps)

Actually, I night believe him if he's refering to old school TKD.

Yes I do, hence the main title of the book is 'Ch'ang Hon' the system name, rather than the 'ITF' which came 11 years later.

Surely all of the blocks count as hand techniques even though they are with the arm?

Of course, to say a hand technique is just a punch is very limiting IMO. Thanks for pointing that out here.



Stuart

[StuartA]

I assume you are referring to everyone's favourite Fangers.

Sorry, what does 'Fangers' mean?

I have been meaning to mention this on the main thread. Under the terms of the IAOMAS (Which they've already broken by not having a linked logo on their site) if one of your clubs joins then you can go and train at FSD for two weeks FOR FREE. I don't expect them to uphold this so reporting it would remove the source of free advertising.

Feel free to point them out and one of the guys will get it sorted one way or another!


Thanks,

Stuart

[StuartA]

For the record, Gen Choi was not the only person in charge of creating patterns and refining the art. There was a number of people under him who were adding, changing and modifying as the sport grew and developed.

Something which is noted in the book!

I can say with a great amount of personal experience that throws and grappling where not taught in TKD curriculum in ITF (the group which Gen Choi headed up for a long time) and GTF (which was GM Park's org.)

Well it shuold have been as it is in the manuals by Gen Choi! As i said before, just cos it wasnt taught at your school doesnt mean its not part of the system!

I have a hard time believing that after 20 odd years of TKD experience I didn't come across these 'secret' techniques especially considering who it was I was training with.

Again, as I said in my first post in response to you, its not claiming 'secret techniques' - it a research into them, their history and beyond with the focus on giving them more realisitic techniques than "this is to block 2 flying kicks" etc. - perhaps you should read a copy first before passing judgment!

Stuart

[oni]

thanks for coming on and posting stuart

[Kintanon]

I've been to TKD schools all over the east coast, from Maryland down to Florida and have never, ever, ever seen a throw taught in class at any level. That includes ITF, ATA, WTF, and ITC schools. If the thing is NEVER taught, then it essentially doesn't exist.

Kintanon

[StuartA]

PS - Anyone care to try and explain the 'why' behind a book like this?

Yes.. its in the very first pages of the book, titled "Why Did I Write This Book?"

Reverse engineering at best, trying to see something that's not there at worst.

Yes, I guess thats what it is (the first one that is - I hope). Unfortunatly, with TKD patterns, Shotokan kata etc. this is what we have to do due to the way they have been past down!

Does Anslow's book talk about the patterns that supposedly based on Karate?

Indeed it does.. quite a bit!

Bottomline is, does it matter whether TKD does have those patterns that really has grappling application (standing or ground)?

TKD can have all the grappling techniques it wants but if it's not trained, sparred, in live manner...well it'll still suck.

Quite agree. This is why the book also details taking the patterns from stage 1 (solo practice) through to stage 4 (using applications with fully resistive opponents)!


Stuart

[StuartA]

thanks for coming on and posting stuart

No problem. Hopefully Ive cleared up some of the misconceptions about the book. As the quote says - dont judge a book by its cover - which is essentially how this thread has been started.

Ive ignored any of the posts that arnt worth replying to because they are just bitchy, as each to their own and I havnt got time to get into flame wars etc.

I was quite surprised to see that it is the non-TKD guys (with the exception of 1 or 2) that seem to be much more open minded about it all and the actual TKD guys (by looking at their user-names and icons etc.) that are more anti-it! Is it any wonder that TKD gets such a bad rep when those that do it, slate things that could move it forward or make it better!! Seems absurd to me!

Anyway, thanks for having me :tongue8:

Stuart

[StuartA]

I've been to TKD schools all over the east coast, from Maryland down to Florida and have never, ever, ever seen a throw taught in class at any level. That includes ITF, ATA, WTF, and ITC schools. If the thing is NEVER taught, then it essentially doesn't exist.

Kintanon

Its taught in mine and its shown in Gen Chois books - therefore it exsists by your definition! If other schools dont teach it, thats there lose as far as Im concerned!

Many judo schools dont teach the kata - but they were put there by the founder, does that mean they dont exsist - or simply that the whole system isnt being taught!


Stuart

[Iscariot]

Won Hyo II is basically pyong (heian) II with minor modifications. The other ITF white and yellow belt forms share a technique or passage here and there but are different. From about green belt on, starting about with Yuk Kok I'd say, the similarities stop.

Subsequent form sets taught by the WTF (palgwe and tae geuk) bear no resemblance to the Japanese forms. Then there's this chil sung nonsense from one of the more kookier kwans, but I won't get into that right now...

Now people may look at black belt forms like Po Eun (ITF) or Pyong Won (WTF) and say, "Those are just sloppy versions of our tekki (naihanchi) forms." Not at all. The only similarity is that they all move back and forth in a crab walk motion like you're fighting with your back against a wall.

Now maybe your Shotokan friends went to a TKD or Tang Soo Do school that still did the Korean versions of the Japanese forms, which we call Pyong An forms. In that case, yeah, they are the Japanese forms with some minor modifications made by the Koreans. That's the way they're taught but that doesn't mean they're being done "Sloppy".

And you can tell your Shotokan buddies we laugh at their silly door hinge sidekicks.

So if you walk into a TKD or TSD school you may be watching the original Pyong An forms, or the ITF forms, or the WTF palgwe forms, or the WTF tae geuk forms. Or, God forbid, the ATA Songham forms. Or maybe even those chil sung forms.

Edit: Anslow's book is about the ITF forms. Like I said, the first three or four ITF forms bear similarities to the Japanese forms. To further add to the great TKD divide I mentioned, some schools do those forms the old way, with the head level throughout, some do them with the bouncy bouncy sine wave.

Ta muchly. I was just repeating what I was told, it's nice to have some clarification.

Yes, IAOMAS does allow cross-training for those that want it and yes we are polite and respectful in the main, but that doesnt mean we dont deal with problems and those that abuse the system set up. Its far from perfect as its a free organisation that has grown further than its original purpose (as a student support system), but we have a complaints procedure and have on occassion got rid of dodgy schools etc. The main issue is, we have lots of members but it is over seen by about 7 guys willing to give their time for free and invest effort into doing so - thats not an easy task with over 600 schools! Still, we are always working on stuff int hat regards.

Firstly welcome to Bullshido Stuart, with the reputation this forum is percieved (often wrongly) to have it can be quite a daunting proposal for an instructor to show up and post. Kudos for that. Secondly congratulations on your new baby.

Now on to business. I do think that IAOMAS is a remarkable concept but that it is open to abuse and acceptance of those who many have inflated rank, fraudulent practices orjust plain incompetant intsructors. This is a comment on what I have seen on the policies I've seen, not aimed at any particular member you have.

Sorry, what does 'Fangers' mean?

Fangers is shorthand for practitioners of Fang Shen Do, a Canadian psuedo-Kung Fu system with a network of schools that have been under investigation by members of Bullshido for quite some time. I don't want to create thread drift here but I can summarise the findings and implications if you'd like (probably by PM at your own forums). TKDBB who started this thread is one of the directing forces of this investigation.

Feel free to point them out and one of the guys will get it sorted one way or another!

I was thinking about mentioning it to Tim Posynick (I think my spelling fails me) about this but thought it would better serve as a potential resource to the investigation by allowing multiple opinions of Fang Shen Do training. Contrary to the public image of Bullshido, we value multiple opinions in order to make a decision on something. It's exactly the same reason that caused myself, DerAus and Mungkorn to relate our knowledge/opinions of you as a martial artist in relation to his query on your book.

Hope this clarifies some of what I've posted.

[Ronin.74]

I've been to TKD schools all over the east coast, from Maryland down to Florida and have never, ever, ever seen a throw taught in class at any level. That includes ITF, ATA, WTF, and ITC schools. If the thing is NEVER taught, then it essentially doesn't exist.

Kintanon

I have seen them taught in WTF TKD classes, albeit poorly and by instructors that have no idea how to properly teach or apply the technique themselves.