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  1. StuartA is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/22/2007 12:01pm


     Style: Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TKD Black Belt
    So let me get this straight here. You have trained with a student of GM Rhee, read Gen Choi's book and wrote a book?
    No, I have studied Ch'ang Hon TKD in-depth consistantly for the last 15+ years (any books and people Ive trained with are irrelevant to this) and did a hell of a lot of research for the book before committing it to print... what about you? ...seeing as your such a critique of a book you`ve never read! Oh sorry, you went to a Gen Choi seminar and trained with one of his students (Hmm... sounds kinda familiar to your own post eh!) before jumping on the bandwagon and slagging off the art!

    Funnily enough, despite your one sided POV, there have been many readers of the book who train directly under the pionner instructors (such as & including Master Park), have spent a lot of time with Gen Choi as well as those in the ITF itself (as well as those not in it) who sem to very much disagree with you.. but then, they took the time to actually read it first!

    Sorry to have wasted your time, go about your business as you were.
    The only time you waste is your own for as long as your head remains up your own backside whilst you try to butter up to the boys club members! So, no problemo!

    Stuart
  2. TKD Black Belt is offline
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    Keeeeee-Yeah!

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    Posted On:
    1/22/2007 1:51pm


     Style: Whoo-Hoo-Fu!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm working to find a copy of the book. I'll let you know when I've seen it and go from there. I'd work on reading comprehension a little bit before you start taking shots though as I very clearly stated I had spent more time than going 'to a Gen Choi seminar and training (ed.) with one of his students'. As you don't seem willing to shed more light on the subject short of plugging your book (which I neither see as right or wrong) I'll leave this till I've had the leisure of reading through it.

    TKD

    THIS IS NOT AN EXIT


    "Ladies and gentlemen, the pilot has instructed everyone to sit the **** down and shut the **** up." Henry Rollins
  3. gringokahn is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/22/2007 2:24pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, Judo, WTF TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I found it on Amazon-

    http://www.amazon.com/Chang-Hon-Taek.../dp/1846852528


    Too bad it can't be ordered online a little cheaper directly from Stuart in PDF format...
  4. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Y SO SRIUS?

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    Posted On:
    1/22/2007 5:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by StuartA
    LOL - when it quotes it sound like a couple of little kids!!
    On this, I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuartA
    Anyway:
    To cover your first few 'he say she say' bits - in one part you refer to how this is meant to prove that Im claiming TKD pattern contains ground fighting (which as pointed out already - Im not) and back that up with statements that say things like "there are throws and locks in there) - since when do throws and locks constitute ground fighting - they dont AFAIA or is anything that isnt a punch or a kick ground fighting to you?
    My question is.....What background do you have to make the throws and locks, apparent to you? They arent apparent to me. Knees, elbows, grabs...yes. Locks, and throws...no

    IMO, when you throw someone to the ground, you are initiating groundfighting. They can trip you, take you with them, or any other number of things. SO you , in ALL your Judo, BJJ, JJ, XP, have never been taken to the ground while trying to execute a throw? Judo teaches throws, AND ground techniques, such as locks , and chokes.

    I made the assumption, (shame on me) that your Judo experience, and the fact that you said you are teaching them some basic ground skills, that you "discovered" that in the patterns, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuartA
    This has been done to death already and many facts have already been pointed out by myself and others with regards to both myself and techniques within TKD that are (for better or worse ) in fact part of the system already. And the rest is called "research"!
    WHere have you answered anything? You "claim" to have done this, or that, and taken that seminar, or this seminar.

    Again...my question is, what training have you formally received, that makes the locks and throws "apparent" to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuartA
    That implies they were hidden deliberatly.. which they wernt. though the book will explain it all more to you.
    Are you just here to plug your book? I didnt say they were hidden...deliberately or not. YOU said that they could be "discovered" in the patterns. I am simply asking you how you "discovered them. Must I drop the cash to find out, by buying the book?

    Quote Originally Posted by stuartA
    Thats the 2nd time you pointed that article out.. which bits dont you agree with exactly and why would I deny them anyway as they are true?
    I point out the article, because it is relevant to this discussion. I have listed the "bits" I dont agree with.

    Many locking techniques can be found within the patterns.

    Deeper inspection of the patterns also reveal many throwing techniques as you will discover
    .


    Quote Originally Posted by stuartA
    NOTE: No where does it say TKD contains groundfighting! There are a few people here who have done or do TKD and like the poster who had never been taught basic throws and so presumed from that no club did them, others showed this not to be the case!
    Please read my above comments. Those will answer this question.

    My problem is with...AGAIN...the fact that they were "discovered" in the patterns.

    I was mentioning all of this to emboesso, who made a deragatory comment towards me. I was explaining my point to HIM. I wasnt meant as a rebuttal post to YOU. which is why I started the post by saying..

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    emboesso...

    I feel that this is an opportune time to ask questions about your book, and your views. $40 bucks is kind of steep. I might gain a little insight.
    Last edited by HonkyTonkMan; 1/22/2007 5:15pm at .
  5. StuartA is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/22/2007 5:42pm


     Style: Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TKD Black Belt
    I'm working to find a copy of the book.
    Its not too hard to find and you must have found it already to start this thread in the first place!!!

    I'll let you know when I've seen it and go from there.
    Fair enough - thats all I ask. And if you dont like it, so be it and if ya do, I hope your man enough to say so!

    I'd work on reading comprehension a little bit before you start taking shots
    I havnt taken any shots about your reading (more power to you for trying to improve it and best of luck with that too). Actually, that makes a good anology - you want to improve on reading - does one need someone with a Masters degree in literature to help you do that, of course not (you see the similarities with earlier threads here), anyway, like I said more power to ya for taking the trouble and effort to improve it.

    What I actually refered to was what you so dismissively said in your last post (about training and books) seem pretty similar to what you said your experience was (which as I said, was by no means a resume - as they start with your real name first!)

    though as I very clearly stated I had spent more time than going 'to a Gen Choi seminar and training (ed.) with one of his students'.
    You said "I have BB cert's signed by Gen Choi and GM Park Jung Tae. I had the opportunity to train with Gen Choi and GM Park Jung Tae a number of times while still associated with ITF and when I made the switch to the GTF was able to spend a substantially larger amount of time with GM Park. " - a number of times equals !!! and switching to the GTF simply means GM Park was the chief instructor and the odd BB session or seminar - not class time - so essentially the same as you pointed out to me. Like I said anyway, there are those that really have spent a lot of time (ie. travelling America, Europe) with General Choi, including some that have actually been to his house in Canada to train, that say different to you.

    The main difference being that they actually read the book before judging it. Some dont agree with everything Ive written, but like I said, thats fine with me, but so far, none have said its crap and full of s##t! - but you did without even reading it! I even got an email from a current master in the ITF saying how much he liked it - so it cant be that bad!!


    As you don't seem willing to shed more light on the subject short of plugging your book (which I neither see as right or wrong)
    Ive shed loads of light on it, and corrected all that was posted incorrectly about it - as asked! I came here as your request and in your post on the IAOMAS forum you said "This isn't to say I'm not open to hearing someone's rational behind the book however. ", which Ive given in bundles, but it seems not to be so with you after all - until now perhaps - as this is the only time you have suggested you might actually get a copy!

    I'll leave this till I've had the leisure of reading through it.
    Okay then - why didnt you just do that initially! It seems you are a TKD'er or an ex-TKD'er with some interest in this area, but to me initially it looked like you were just toeing the party line and dismissing anything about TKD straight off - actually, looked is the wrong word, as you were, at least until now!

    Email me direct when you have the book if you want.

    Stuart
    Last edited by StuartA; 1/22/2007 5:45pm at .
  6. StuartA is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/22/2007 5:43pm


     Style: Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa
    Instead of anything substantive there was initially a lot of armwaving about grappling qualifications.
    Only by some that felt you needed a BB in judo to teach some basic throws as I think they initially were under the impression I was teaching full on grappling classes, which of course Im not or that the book was promoting patterns replacing ground work - which of course it doesnt! But I think thats cleared up now!

    If I, with bjj in my style field was teaching striking
    The difference is, AFAIK BJJ doesnt include striking (although I heard theres a funny kicking picture in one of the BJJ books - cant recall which one though!!), whereas TKD, for better or worse has the basic throws and wrist locks as part of it, defined and printed in the founders text as well as taught in many clubs! Sure you dont like it or dont feel its up to your high standards but there you go! And all that was before I even started my research for the book!

    And it is important to note that StuartA does teach grappling to some degree making all of the questioning highly relevant on a website like this.
    I agree that I teach some basic stand up grappling techniques - which you dont like, but as repeated in other posts, its not a full on grappling program by any means, just some basic techniques and bits to fill a void which I freely admit is a flaw within the system. As 99% is technically part of TKD anyway (as I have said above and anyone with the texts can confirm) I am quite within the realms of my system to teach it. The fact that I try to make it better has fallen on deaf ears as only the fact that they are not up to your standards seems to matter to you.

    Stuart
  7. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/22/2007 6:17pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blues-man
    ITF TKD does have throws...
    ITF TKD has throws the way Judo has strikes . . .
  8. StuartA is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/22/2007 6:25pm


     Style: Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry, I seriously didnt realise your post was to someone else as a one on one - my apologies to both of you for jumping in.

    Anyway...
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    My question is.....What background do you have to make the throws and locks, apparent to you? They arent apparent to me. Knees, elbows, grabs...yes. Locks, and throws...no
    They wernt just "apparent" to me. I studied and research the patterns. But I guess it helps that I learn some both within standard TKD training and training with others! Does a history book mean the author has lived in that era - no.. he researches! Im sorry they wernt apparent to you, but dont feel bad as they arnt apparent to many at all - hence why I did the book - so now they are! :-)

    IMO, when you throw someone to the ground, you are initiating groundfighting. They can trip you, take you with them, or any other number of things.
    By your anology that means anything equals groundfighting - if I pinch someone he can pull me to the ground, if I kick someone .. he can too.. so by your definition ANYTHING can equal groundfighting!!!!

    SO you , in ALL your Judo, BJJ, JJ, XP, have never been taken to the ground while trying to execute a throw?
    You forget my TKD experience as well.. yes I have.. your point is though? Anyone can get taken to the ground, thats why we do some minimal ground based stuff to get back up! The TKD manuals (like I said before - for better or worse) actually covers striking off the floor (not very well IMO), so again its part of TKD - it needs improvement (hence why we have made improvements) but it still there and has been from the off!

    Judo teaches throws, AND ground techniques, such as locks , and chokes.
    Not exclusively!

    I made the assumption, (shame on me) that your Judo experience, and the fact that you said you are teaching them some basic ground skills, that you "discovered" that in the patterns, as well.
    well, as pointed out a number of times - your assumption was wrong! Besides, anything in the patterns via the book waas researched.. not discovered.. the two are very different things!


    WHere have you answered anything? You "claim" to have done this, or that, and taken that seminar, or this seminar.
    Geez.. go back and read the thread properly will ya!

    Again...my question is, what training have you formally received, that makes the locks and throws "apparent" to you.
    Read the above answers and again, go back and read the thread properly!


    Are you just here to plug your book?
    Nope, or else I would have started the thread myself wouldnt I - as that was already done by the first poster!

    I didnt say they were hidden...deliberately or not. YOU said that they could be "discovered" in the patterns. I am simply asking you how you "discovered them.
    No it says the reader will discover them by reading the book, IE they will be informed, i never said thats how I went about finding them - you misread what it says!

    Must I drop the cash to find out, by buying the book?
    As its you... yes :disgust: Seriously though, if you want to know all the nitty gritty then yes, if your not interested then no - like i said, I aint trying to preach to the converted!

    I point out the article, because it is relevant to this discussion. I have listed the "bits" I dont agree with.
    And Ive reponded in kind. Just cos you dont agree with them, it doesnt make them any the less true.

    Please read my above comments. Those will answer this question.
    erm, there wasnt a question there to answer!!!!

    My problem is with...AGAIN...the fact that they were "discovered" in the patterns.
    So now you know they wernt discovered but researched, thats your problem solved right!

    I was mentioning all of this to emboesso, who made a deragatory comment towards me. I was explaining my point to HIM. I wasnt meant as a rebuttal post to YOU. which is why I started the post by saying..
    Which is why I apologised above. Perhaps you should us PM's next time maybe!



    $40 bucks is kind of steep.
    Not really, its a 360 page nearly A4 size book with years of work behind it & contains lots of other snippets and interesting/useful stuff aside from the pattern apps - bargain Id say!

    I might gain a little insight.
    Thats what the back cover blurb is for!

    Stuart
    Last edited by StuartA; 1/22/2007 7:26pm at .
  9. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/22/2007 7:31pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by stuartA
    As its you... yes Seriously though, if you want to know all the nitty gritty then yes, if your not interested then no - like i said, I aint trying to preach to the converted!
    In spite of myself, I find that I am beggining to like you.

    I will pick up a copy of the book. I am interested in TKD taking a more realistic approach to self defense. Is your book the answer? I dont know. I will at least give you the benefit of the doubt until I read it.

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