The 'real meaning' of TKD patterns......

[UpaLumpa]

So you're afraid of a little criticism of bad ground techniques?
Those pictures were pretty bad. I only linked to them from here but was there any way for someone to realize they were old and not representative (if indeed they're not) of your grappling ability?

If they are representative of how you grapple, well you probably shouldn't be charging for grappling instruction. That may seem harsh and rude or whatever but still is applicable.

[UpaLumpa]

Go find out for yourself nobhead.

Three months judo...

Is this the sort of "shooting" or "sprawling" you teach and practice:
http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/Photos...ay2006_097.jpg

[Askari]

This is going to be fun.

Go find out for yourself nobhead.

Obviously none, or next to none. 3 months Judo eh? Well it shows.

The above idiot is precisley the reason many do not post here. I came here to simply clear up some misconceptions about the book, by someone who came on the IAOMAS forum pretending to want to know about it, not realising he had mostly already judged it (apologies if that isnt the case, it does seem that way however)!

You cant take criticism so you go for the Ad Hominim, well done, but I wont go away. And I will stick to criticising your crappy grappling, instead of your crappy grammer.

If the posted pics do not reflect your current ability, and they are from your website, perhaps update your website. The above posted pics are exactly why scam artists like you get slammed on this site. WHAT IS WRONG WITH TAKING A COUPLE OF YEARS AND ACTUALLY GETTING CERTIFIED IN A GRAPPLING ART?

Why oh Why do you have to make this stuff up?

I wonder when you see a Gracie punch or kick if you feel the same way - do you have a word for that too?

Yes we do, its __ing __un. And its just as crappy as your grappling.

[StuartA]

Dam.. i just just about to go to bed as well!

So you're afraid of a little criticism of bad ground techniques?

Nope! This thread was about the book and some misconceptions.. I didnt realsie it was a personal attack on me via some photos! Besides, how do photos show what ability I have or not?

Those pictures were pretty bad. I only linked to them from here but was there any way for someone to realize they were old and not representative (if indeed they're not) of your grappling ability?

Well, with the exception of the older one, the poster could have read the write ups of the seminars and taken them in context yes! I notice the original poster of the pics didnt pic the IAOMAS BJJ guys when slagging IAOMAS off, like this one:

If they are representative of how you grapple, well you probably shouldn't be charging for grappling instruction. That may seem harsh and rude or whatever but still is applicable.

I dont, I teach TKD. The grappling/groundwork element is simply there to fill a void in the system that I feel is sadly lacking, its nothing revolutionary, but covers a missing gap fairly well. Students arnt advised to take the fight to the floor or anything silly like that!

Three months judo...

Bit more than that Im afraid - I did that in my youth! The groundwork we do at the club is pretty basic compared to a BJJ school but it has elvolved as Ive trained with groundwork guys in judio, JJ and BJJ and some SD instructors. Originally I only taught a few throws until I learnt some groundwork properly and has evolved slowly ever since.

Is this the sort of "shooting" or "sprawling" you teach and practice

Not really, it was a demonstration of a pattern application actually!

Stuart

[StuartA]

This is going to be fun.

Only cos your be playing with yourself once again!


laters :sleepy1:

[Askari]

Again the fundamental questions.

What is wrong with teaching what you are actually qualified to teach?

What is wrong with taking the time to become qualified?

If you wont answer these, they will remain on google forever. Unless you can answer simple questions like this, then you are going to be haunted by this for a long time.

[oldman34]

Whose experience? Senior okinawan police officers teach kata and applications to the officers for self defence so there experience says different Im afraid!

Do they teach ONLY kata? For your point to be valid, then they cannot be training in anything other than kata. If they are, sparring, hitting a bag, or shadow boxing, then this means nothing. Just because kata is part of the curriculum, doesnt mean its useful.

My students have said that even simply visulising decent techniques have made their patterns feel more warrented and the resistance work we do adds practical applications of the tehniques that merge the differences between patterns and self defence properly

Your students have said? I used to teach TKD. I havent ever had ANY of the people I taught say this to me. Actually, they feel just the opposite. They all think it is a waste of time. SO does this make my point valid?

I didnt come to be slagged off by some idiot troll and have spent time away from my new baby girl answering these posts, which I dont mind until arsehols like the above do there crap so I will make my leave now, which I certainly aint wasting these precious times on.

If we all agreed with you, and told you how wonderful kata was, would you then feel differently? It seems that you only see this as a waste of time, because we dont agree with you.

I dont, I teach TKD. The grappling/groundwork element is simply there to fill a void in the system that I feel is sadly lacking, its nothing revolutionary, but covers a missing gap fairly well. Students arnt advised to take the fight to the floor or anything silly like that!

Kudos for this, but to what extent is your training in groundwork? If you arent well versed in it, then you are teaching crappling.

Bit more than that Im afraid - I did that in my youth! The groundwork we do at the club is pretty basic compared to a BJJ school but it has elvolved as Ive trained with groundwork guys in judio, JJ and BJJ and some SD instructors. Originally I only taught a few throws until I learnt some groundwork properly and has evolved slowly ever since.

Please list your qualifications (training/ranks in a style) then.
Of course it is pretty basic compared to a BJJ school.
It has evolved as you train with Judo,JJ, and BJJ guys? SO you havent/arent actively seeking ranks in any of these arts, to show that you have invested the time to learn it properly? Watching some videos, and rolling with a blue belt in BJJ, doent equate to grappling XP. If you want to add groundwork to TKD, then great, but just learn it properly i.e. get a purple or brown belt in BJJ, or Judo THEN add it to the curriculum.
It seems that you are adding it, to attract/keep students. This can be the only conclusion since you dont seem to be ACTIVELY training in any ground arts.

Second wow of the day for using the second pic (an old picture taken about 6 or 7 years ago.. big wow! The final Wow, to pat yourself on the back for, for posting some pics of people training togethor at a seminar.. well done they exactly sum up everything about me! Feel free to post your site up so we can scour it and mock some pictures as well!

If the picture is old, and not indicative of your teachings/skills, then take it down. Otherwise, be prepared for criticism.
As far as the pat on the back. YOU posted them too. So, your sarcasm can be directed right back at you.

Ive not hidden any of my history or training, nor am I just a random name/troll on a forum slagging people off for the sake of it!

Therefore, your LACK of training, is open to public criticism. I havent read your book. If I do, and then feel criticism is in order, will you still think I am trolling you? Will you then be capable of better accepting my view on things, or will you insult me too?

Well, with the exception of the older one, the poster could have read the write ups of the seminars and taken them in context yes!

A few hours at a seminar, does NOT a grappling instructor make.

If they are representative of how you grapple, well you probably shouldn't be charging for grappling instruction. That may seem harsh and rude or whatever but still is applicable.

As much as it pains me to say this....

He has a point here, Stuart.

[Art]

My sincere apologies.

Does this mean I can put you down for a pre-order?

I'm interested in your product and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. . . hot women on the cover?

[Matt W.]

STuart, first off, you actually aren't doing that bad compared to some of the people that come here and get criticized. But I encourage you to NOT resort to calling the people here trolls. Many people here are accomplished martial artists who have met one another IRL.

As for the criticism, let me see if I can sum up for you the problem that everyone seems to have with you and your book/curriculum. It is to be applauded that you want to address the lack of grappling in TKD. And it is to be applauded that you bring in real grappling instrcutors to do seminars. However you are also doing two other things that most people here (myself included, I'm afraid) consider to be bullshido. You are claiming that there is "grappling" taught in the TKD forms, and you are teaching grappling yourself without (?) any credentials.

Now, I've only got a moment here, so I don't have time to check your links. If you have some qualifications to teach grappling (e.g. ranked in Judo like you have hinted at) then please post them.

[StuartA]

Do they teach ONLY kata? For your point to be valid, then they cannot be training in anything other than kata. If they are, sparring, hitting a bag, or shadow boxing, then this means nothing. Just because kata is part of the curriculum, doesnt mean its useful.

I dont know if they only teach kata, just its a main part of their curriculium (not Kata per say, but the applications of them) - I didnt see them doing bag work or the rest, just some roadwork. It was in reply to someones "experience", simply pointing out that others experiences are different! So whose point does it make invalid!

Your students have said? I used to teach TKD. I havent ever had ANY of the people I taught say this to me. Actually, they feel just the opposite. They all think it is a waste of time. SO does this make my point valid?

No, it actually validates mine! As your experiences show that as they were, many see them as pointless, but with a little more substance it gives them more worth!

If we all agreed with you, and told you how wonderful kata was, would you then feel differently? It seems that you only see this as a waste of time, because we dont agree with you.

I dont expect everyone to agree with me and Im not trying to convince anyone that doesnt like kata that they are wonderful - where in this thread have I said that? I came here by request to clear up some misconceptions about the book. The waste of time comment has nothing to do with whether you agree or not that kata are good/bad, as as you can see I have posted a lot of responses to those that ask genuine stuff. It was in response to stupid posts that added nothing to the topic in hand either way! And yes, I aint got time to waste on crap like that!

Kudos for this, but to what extent is your training in groundwork?

Kudos LOL - if a club doesnt do any they get slagged off, if they do, they still get slagged off. My training in groundwork is sufficient enough to do what we do, nothing more nothing less. Like I said, its minimal as it is and simply to cover a void.

If you arent well versed in it, then you are teaching crappling

.
Well though I havnt graded formerly in Judo, my interest has been there since I first encountered it in my youth. I train in it when the opportunity arises and have done so for the last 15 years (as well as other grappling arts when possible). Like I said, what we do is minimal, perhaps using the term "groundwork" isnt the correct way, as the focus is to regain footing as quickly as possible or get a choke on quick, not a grappling competition like in BJJ. I have already got opinions off both judo and BJJ instructors as to what we do and they felt it was fine as well as giving me some pointers which I initited into it. You are making out like Im claiming Im a BJJ school or something, which is not the case.

Please list your qualifications (training/ranks in a style) then.

After you! In fact, what style do you teach now then?

Of course it is pretty basic compared to a BJJ school.
It has evolved as you train with Judo,JJ, and BJJ guys? SO you havent/arent actively seeking ranks in any of these arts, to show that you have invested the time to learn it properly?

Nope, Im not into multiple ranks. I stick with my base art and add to it. If I expanded the ground side as a club I would most certainly learn it as fully as possible first.

Watching some videos, and rolling with a blue belt in BJJ, doent equate to grappling XP.

Nothing Ive insituted in this area has been learnt off videos, its all via experience and training with ground systems over the years. I remind you its not "rolling" as most BJJ would term it, its a minimal approach to cover a gap.

If you want to add groundwork to TKD, then great, but just learn it properly i.e. get a purple or brown belt in BJJ, or Judo THEN add it to the curriculum.

I have seen many belts who still dont know their own system properly, despite their high grade. I dont need extra labels to teach a few things. Like I said, if I was going more indepth on it all I would, but time as it stands, doesnt permit it. And I always advise my own students to go to the source if they really want to get good at these areas (ie. cross train in judo or BJJ)

It seems that you are adding it, to attract/keep students. This can be the only conclusion since you dont seem to be ACTIVELY training in any ground arts.

Well seeing as there are much easier ways to retain students via BS contracts and the like, I dont think so and as only senior levels do it your way off. But I guess you can think what you like.

If the picture is old, and not indicative of your teachings/skills, then take it down. Otherwise, be prepared for criticism.

I dont mind critcism, like I said, I came here to discuss a book, not to be charactor assasinated! The whole thread was around the book and nothing to do with soem pictures on a web site or even grappling come to that!

As far as the pat on the back. YOU posted them too. So, your sarcasm can be directed right back at you.

Guess so. I get posted nearly everything on that site. Its pretty easy to pick out a few pics out of hundreds to use to poke fun at. No worries though.

Therefore, your LACK of training, is open to public criticism.

Sure, if you must. Though not holding dan grades says nothing of my training, you dont know how much or how little time I invest in my training or have done over the years. Im sure if I look through this site there weill be a few posts on instructors that hold 20 black belts or somthing and you wont be there saying they are a martial god or something - Id expect the exact opposite in fact! Perhaps you should train with me first before casting such shadows though, or at least ask someone who has!

I havent read your book. If I do, and then feel criticism is in order, will you still think I am trolling you?

Nope. I can accept critism. The trolling comment I posted were in responses to something that had nothing to do with the book or the original post! And I fully expect anyone who doesnt like kata/patterns to have a dim view of the book and would actually wonder why they brought a copy in the first place, as that seems insensical to me!

Will you then be capable of better accepting my view on things, or will you insult me too?

Oh, seems Ive stumbled on an old boys club. So, someones allowed to insult me and you say nothing, but when I respond I'm called on it! I see!!

A few hours at a seminar, does NOT a grappling instructor make.

I agree.

As much as it pains me to say this....
He has a point here, Stuart.

Why would it pain you? Besides, I reponded to that comment already!

Stuart