Posted On:1/07/2007 11:43pm
Style: BJJ, wrestling
So you're brave enough to post this anonymously on a message board, but not brave enough to deal with the possibility of actually confronting any of the people you have maligned? Gotcha.
Shut the hell up and train.
Style: FMA, CMA, & more
Originally Posted by 3Kings
Nice try gentlemen but I have to live in this community...
I'm reminded of the need for courage all warriors have. The courage to face down an armed opponent, the courage to attempt a new technique or new strategy in competition, or in this case the courage to really, truly, stand up for one's own convictions (no pun intended, Doc!).
My ID is my real name, and it'd be easy enough to visit my location and track me down. Any comment I make online I make knowing full well that I'm out there, exposed, and if someone takes exception to what I've said it's going to bite me in the ass. That makes me ensure I've thought through my comments before I click on "submit reply."
If you are too scared of some form of repurcussion by a martial arts teacher/businessman in the greater Buffalo area (which, I'm told by both my former instructor as well as a fellow serviceman, isn't really that gargantuan of an area, and is even smaller as far as martial arts goes), then you've gutted yourself before you got out of the gates... Your lack of balls comes across as little more than another whackjob taking pot shots at a prominent local name. Whether your comments are accurate or not is immaterial...
Thanks for the momentary distraction during laundry, though... It gets so boring waiting for the next load to finish up...
Posted On:1/08/2007 12:04am
I choose not to share my personal information with you. If you have a problem with that then don't click on this thread anymore. Who I am has nothing to do with whether someone is a fraud or not.
Posted On:1/08/2007 12:09am
ok, so who here is a fraud?
The consensus is Gyi for the military lies. Ok, got that.
Posted On:1/08/2007 12:13am
Originally Posted by 3Kings
Who I am has nothing to do with whether someone is a fraud or not.[/SIZE]
I don't see anyone debating whether Hartman or the others you cited were questionable (I don't think "fraud" is a completely accurate term, at least not in Hartman's case). It seems that the issue at hand is simply one of the motivation behind the act.
You publicly announce that you have issues with Hartman, et al. Fine. However, you refuse to identify where you are coming from in terms of why any of this is an issue for you. Great, you've identified some spotty areas that could use a little public admonition. You are about 2 or 3 years late, so thanks for catching up.
For you to come onto Bullshido in an attempt to bring a discussion back to the forefront, one that was "put to bed" long ago (with an overall agreement, if I recall, that Hartman's promotions were bullshit, but didn't really hurt anyone, so nobody cared), demonstrates what can only be perceived as a personal vendetta as opposed to a call to public service.
What is it you're afraid of? That a posse of stick-armed escrimadors are going to make a housecall and tapi-tapi you silly? Please. Hartman and his group have more to lose by coming after you physically (Sam, help me here, I'm "just" a paralegal, but I don't see any real legal issue for 3Kings saying he thinks there's some bullshit about...), so what repurcussion for coming clean are you so wary of? You "have to live" in Buffalo. Fine. Your concern for identifying yourself and linking your real person to your public comments would imply to me that you're a fellow businessman that might feel a very real impact in your income were any negative comments of yours associated with your public endeavors...
Care to comment?
Hartman hosts ANOTHER Gyi seminar at his dojo next month. Hartman doesn't seem to mind doing business with a fraud. Birds of a feather flock together! Hartman creates his own organization that proceeds to promote him to 7th and then 9th Dan, skipping 8th altogether. I'd say Tim Hartman is a fraud and Horizon Martial Arts is a McDojo.
Posted On:1/08/2007 12:16am
Originally Posted by 3Kings
Hartman hosts ANOTHER Gyi seminar at his dojo next month. Hartman doesn't seem to mind doing business with a fraud. Birds of a feather flock together!
Perhaps. They're both in it for the money. Fine.
Hartman creates his own organization that proceeds to promote him to 7th and then 9th Dan, skipping 8th altogether. I'd say Tim Hartman is a fraud and Horizon Martial Arts is a McDojo.
Fraud and McDojo owner aren't necessarily the same thing. Please, identify what your specific issues are... The rank? Dealt with. The profiteering? Obvious. But what's the source of your personal venom? There's more to this than just your call to police the local martial community's business practices...
Posted On:1/08/2007 12:17am
Matt, you make some great points and also make me laugh too, thanks for that. I would love to comment but can't do so without inadvertantly revealing who I am in the process. Thanks for admitting that Hartman's promotions, while harmless are bullshit nevertheless.
Posted On:1/08/2007 12:22am
Originally Posted by Matt Stone
But what's the source of your personal venom? There's more to this than just your call to police the local martial community's business practices...
Nope, just want to see ACCOUNTABILITY. Hartman has operated unchecked for so long that he believes his own BS. I just want him to know that not everyone buys it. I know Tim and he's as vain as they come. The mere fact that this is on a public forum that his buddy Tubbard can't delete and ban is killing him and that is satisfaction enough for me.
Posted On:1/08/2007 12:23am
Originally Posted by 3Kings, anonymous coward burbled
I'd say Tim Hartman is a fraud and Horizon Martial Arts is a McDojo.
In a broad strokes definition, fraud is a deliberate misrepresentation which causes another person to suffer damages, usually monetary losses. Most people consider the act of lying to be fraud, but in a legal sense lying is only one small element of actual fraud. A salesman may lie about his name, eye color, place of birth and family, but as long as he remains truthful about the product he sells, he will not be found guilty of fraud. There must be a deliberate misrepresentation of the product's condition and actual monetary damages must occur.
I don't see Tim misrepresenting anything about his promotions. They were issued by the organization, and he has not claimed otherwise. His 7th was recognized by numerous non-WMAA affiliated people, including several prominent independents.
McDojo is an example of McWords applied to martial arts dojo. The term sometimes is uses as a pejorative term used by some Western martial artists to describe a martial arts school where image or profit is of a higher importance than technical standards. A McDojo of Korean martial arts is usually called a McDojang. A McDojo (used as a noun) is a martial arts school of any style that uses specific business practices or principles for the purpose of generating revenue for the school. McDojo as an adjective is applied to indicate that a particular action or practice by a school is motivated primarily by financial gain. While using the term McDojo primarily indicates judgment of a school’s financial or marketing practices, it also implies that the teaching standards of such school cater towards the lowest common denominator and may be fraudulent.
What practices at Horizon Martial Arts sacrifice quality of instruction for financial gain?
Please cite specific practices and examples where you have seen evidence of this.
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