232865 Bullies, 3834 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

View Poll Results: Do you own: Japanese Sword Fighting: Secrets of the Samurai?

Voters
105. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, I admit to closet geekdom

    16 15.24%
  • No, never, you cant prove a thing

    53 50.48%
  • Ninjas stole my autographed copy

    36 34.29%
Results 81 to 90 of 106
Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 56789 1011 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. reptileddp is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    43

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 9:28am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    there are just too many questions with tanemura... and i would still, even if his scrolls are authentic...i have to question how much he was really taught...
    atleast with hatsumi he is for real. there is no question was was actually trained by takamatsu. and as far as koryu budo and ninpo is concerned there are no questions when it comes to wether or not he is legit. which would make him the leading authority in ninpo and budo.
    granted some of the ryu we train in there are other legitimate grandmasters that still practice today. but how many of them where in combat? when was the last time it was actually used?
    and all they do is practice the technique/form and that's it.
    bujinkan is the closest link to ancient japanese combat and takamatsu actually used and tested the scrolls...our style has not been watered down thru a bunch of grandmasters with no combat expeirience.
    i feel the truth is people who bad mouth hatsumi/bujinkan only do it because they do not understand real budo / ninpo.

    hatsumi does not just teach technique...he trully lives the "ninja lifestyle" and applies it to life and training.
    what happens when a technique fails? doesnt work?
    we focus on the ability to adapt. to change, the true meaning of henka.
    and we do not limit ourselves to one style or one way, hatsumi teaches all 9 ryu together this is bujinkan, not each school sepeartely. he applies ninpo to what we do regaldless of which school the technique came from.

    people mis-understand bujinkan. example..on this forum on the overview of bujinkan it says its a flaw that we use Kamae...kamae is not a posture, and kamae are used in the basics... it is to develope the body to move correctly...it does not mean when you fight you start out in kamae and then move...your movement into the kamae creates the distance and timing..when you get good the kamae disappears into a natural movement.
    there the form disappears...this is ninjutsu..the technique becomes unseen by the enemy.
    in the same styles we study that others do..you can see their form and way of moving..this is bad because people can see it and learn your way..in bujinkan you cant ...this is the true spirit of budo and ninpo the true art of the samurai.

    budo and ninpo are the same. in order to understand ninpo, you must understand budo. it is the mindset, this way of looking at things, adapting, changing, surviving...from this ninpo was created in japan....of course the best way to explain it is ninpo has to do with sneaking around...spying...etc... but the feeling and mentality goes beyond words, beyond the comprehnsion of one's mind...into a world of things that cannot be understood, and the secret is being aware, having knowledge of these things that you cannot understand.

    and the way hatsumi teaches, gives you infinite possibilites, unlike other instructors.
    it's all in what you can see based on your perseption.
    hatsumi does not teach, you have to 'steal' the techniques from him...but it's all in how you look at whats goping on. and one of his whole porposes for doing things the way he does is just that, so people who try to mock him, cannot understand what he is teaching, and whats really happening. and an enemy having that mindset has already defeated himself.
  2. shmuel is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    337

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 9:38am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    there are just too many questions with tanemura... and i would still, even if his scrolls are authentic...i have to question how much he was really taught...
    atleast with hatsumi he is for real. there is no question was was actually trained by takamatsu.
    Takamatsu certainly did award Hatsumi with several sokeships, but I don't actually think he was the longest training or the most frequently training student. Takamatsu had other students who had trained for longer than Hatsumi.

    Does anyone know exactly how often and how long Hatsumi would train with Takamatsu? Was it every weekend for 15 years? Or once a month? And was it all weekend?

    Not that this takes away from Hatsumi's legitimate inheritance from Takamatsu. Many koryu schools have a habit of choosing a successor who is not the most senior or the longest training or even the most skilled.


    and as far as koryu budo and ninpo is concerned there are no questions when it comes to wether or not he is legit. which would make him the leading authority in ninpo and budo..
    There are plenty of questions that are unresolved about the ninpo claims and lineages.

    And he is not the leading authority in budo. There is no such thing. And even if there were such a thing, there are many, many budo experts and masters in Japan.
  3. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 9:41am


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    and even if i was wrong, there is no other martial artists or lineage leading to any teachers alive who claim to be a grandmaster of anything who studied with takamatsu longer or even close to Hatsumi, or new/ had a personal relationship any where close to hatsumi and takamatsu.
    First, just accept that you were wrong. It happens all the time and it is how people learn. There is no shame in it.

    Kimura did in fact study longer and more regularly with Takamatsu and had the benefit of living in the same area. Takamatsu had several older generation students who also had more face to face time with him then Hatsumi had. Why your belief that no one else trained with Takamatsu is so signficant toy our faith in Hatsumi I have no idea but it is simply incorrect.

    Hatsumi's inheritance of the particular schools he was granted by Takamatsu are a seperate issue from who studied with Takamatsu and who Takamatsu granted other school lineages.

    I cannot for a moment fathom why you think that the only way Hatsumi can be seen as legitimate is if Takamatsu never taught, granted Menkyo or passed along Sokeships to anyone else. It's not like Japanese martial arts are akin to the "Highlander." There actually can be more then one.

    hatsumi has the letters and post marks to prove it, he has pictures, boxes and boxes of pictures and film and a lot of it. to include verified sokeships, and takamtsu's scrolls written by his teachers.
    Yes, for the specific school he was granted by Takamatsu. This isn't in dispute.
  4. reptileddp is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    43

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 9:58am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    alright i am trying to be quick with my words.....

    there is no one else teaching...today....in our generation that has had training with takamatsu that is teaching...

    i dont care if takamatsu taught somebody something and they are dead... there is no lineage from takamatsu to someone, to somebody alive today teaching. who is legit. (and actually trained under takamatsu, with him....not somebody who was sent techniques by mail from takamatsu.

    takamatsu sent techniques by mail to other martial artists to try out...that is it.

    and i am not wrong. all other people who ever trained with takamatsu in the past are dead.
    and yes the guy who wrote the bojutsu book may have received menkyo kaiden in whatever, but that is only a very small portion of the kukishin ryu, it is not a complete art.
    and they guy was not a grandmaster of it.

    and whatever tanemura tries to say or Sato kimbei...they never actually and physically trained with takamatsu.

    takamatsu even wrote a letter to hatsumi and a poem, telling him he is to carry on the 9 schools, no one else. that is why he inhereted takamatsu's scrolls. (this is post marked from takamatsu)

    no one else trained with takamatsu. when i say that i am refering to a lineage thru him, whereby someone is currently teaching in our time. hatsumi is the only one.

    again you have tried to take my words out of context, or you just like to argue.

    either way, i'm done with that subject.
  5. shmuel is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    337

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 10:11am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's also the Kaminaga Shigemi line of Koro Ryu Koppojutsu. That comes from Takamatsu and is practiced today.
  6. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 10:40am


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    alright i am trying to be quick with my words.....
    How about trying something new, like being accurate.

    there is no lineage from takamatsu to someone, to somebody alive today teaching. who is legit. (and actually trained under takamatsu, with him....not somebody who was sent techniques by mail from takamatsu.
    Not true.

    Takamatsu taught Takashi Ueno whose family has continued to teach to this day.

    Takamatsu taught within the context of the Kuki Family and they are still teaching.

    Takamatsu taught Sato Kinbei and granted him Sokeship in Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Kinbei in turn passed this lineage on to Tanemura.

    Why do you have such a hardon for the idea that no one but Hatsumi ever trained with Takamatsu?

    and whatever tanemura tries to say or Sato kimbei...they never actually and physically trained with takamatsu.
    Since presenting fact seems to do no good, let's flip it.

    What proof do you have that Kinbei never trained with Takamatsu?
  7. reptileddp is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    43

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 12:35pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    they never even met! rthose people did not learn by training with takamatsu.

    i already told you,

    takamatsu sent them techniques by mail. its a fact, that's why it wont be gotten over.

    if you want to try to argue with it, then show any type of proof that they met.......

    you cant, becuase it was by mail only.
    they never actually practiced with takamatsu.

    neither Ueno or Kimbei ever actually trained with takamatsu. again, you have no proof,

    neither do they, and i havent seen it, any videos pics, there's no books/even a pic in a book, no one has seen proof that they even met!

    think about it, why isnt there any pics of hatsumi w/ kimbei or Ueno with takamatsu or anything about them training together at takamatsu's? and Kimbei and Ueno have pics...with other people, why wouldnt they take a pic with takamatsu? atleast one...just one.
    and dont you think if they were legit, they would atleast show a pic of themselves w/ Takamatsu? dont you think tanemura would want to get pics of his teachers with takamatsu? that would sure as hell solidify his claims.
    this is why hatsumi put out his DVD with takamatsu.
  8. shmuel is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    337

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 12:45pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp

    neither do they, and i havent seen it, any videos pics, there's no books/even a pic in a book, no one has seen proof that they even met!

    think about it, why isnt there any pics of hatsumi w/ kimbei or Ueno with takamatsu or anything about them training together at takamatsu's? and Kimbei and Ueno have pics...with other people, why wouldnt they take a pic with takamatsu? atleast one...just one.
    and dont you think if they were legit, they would atleast show a pic of themselves w/ Takamatsu? dont you think tanemura would want to get pics of his teachers with takamatsu? that would sure as hell solidify his claims.
    this is why hatsumi put out his DVD with takamatsu.
    Hmmm, by the same token, have you ever wondered why there are no pictures of Takamatsu with Toda? Why wouldn't Takamatsu have taken a pic with his teacher Toda? at least just one?

    Another thing: if no-one else trained with Takamatsu, how did Hatsumi meet him? I doubt that Hatsumi found him through the Internet.
  9. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 1:03pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    did you know the kuki families scrolls were lost, and it was takamatsu who re-wrote them a copy of his? this is why no one else in the world is allowed to use KUKISHINDEN RYU?
    they can only use KUKISHIN RYU....
    its' becuase takamatsu gave the KUKISHINDEN RYU to Hatsumi only. (with some added material)
    You can find the Kuki Family's comments on this piece of misinformation at

    http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/mystic_e.htm

    You are right in that the only lineage given to Hatsumi from those related to Kukishin Ryu was the "Kukishinden Ryu Happo Bikenjutsu." This was not the only lineage of the Kukishin Ryu that Takamatsu had access to nor the only one he taught in his lifetime.

    You should really talk with Paul Richardson at some point about the history of the Ryuha within the Bujinkan. You seem to have picked up a lot of the mythology but not a lot of the facts. Kind of sad.

    Still waiting for your proof that Ueno and Kinbei were simply correspondence students of Takamatsu. Simply saying it is so doesn't make it so.
  10. reptileddp is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    43

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 1:41pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel
    Hmmm, by the same token, have you ever wondered why there are no pictures of Takamatsu with Toda? Why wouldn't Takamatsu have taken a pic with his teacher Toda? at least just one?

    Another thing: if no-one else trained with Takamatsu, how did Hatsumi meet him? I doubt that Hatsumi found him through the Internet.
    that is how hatsumi found takamatsu...

    he was studying under Ueno, who happens to be his uncle....

    Takamatsu sent techniques by mail to Ueno who practiced them with hatsumi...hatsumi in turn went to see takamatsu becuase Ueno told him that he did not have anything else to teach him. and to go to takamatsu because he was a real warrior.

    and you claim that kimura learned what he did....then you need to recheck Tanemura's site becuase he doesnt even claim that...
    it only says Jujutsu and bojutsu.
    http://www.genbukan.org/Amatsu_Tatar...dy_kimura.html

    again, you have avoided the question....to show evidence they trained together....
    that's like saying i trained with ken shamrock...and the gracie's...whoever....
    can you prove that i didnt?
    stop trying to avoid whays obvious.

    if you want to end this conversation like i said before thats fine, we can agree to disagree.

    and it's not people like me who turn the bujinkan into a cult...
    you misinterpret what i say.

    like i said its a dead end conversation...but i'd rather train with hatsumi than anyone else, you there is no dispute of hatsumi's legitamicy...
Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 56789 1011 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.