223758 Bullies, 3685 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

View Poll Results: Do you own: Japanese Sword Fighting: Secrets of the Samurai?

Voters
104. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, I admit to closet geekdom

    16 15.38%
  • No, never, you cant prove a thing

    52 50.00%
  • Ninjas stole my autographed copy

    36 34.62%
Results 71 to 80 of 106
Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 45678 91011 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    4/16/2007 1:29pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    alright, yes takamtsu tuaght while he was in china, but the school name was Shinden fudo ryu i think...cant remember which style he taught while he was there....
    He was teaching Kukishinden Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu as per Hatsumi's DVD of Takamatsu Footage.

    sorry i did not write out takamatsu's complete biography on the forum...
    You don't have to write out a full biography but when you make claims clearly grounded in ignorance and misinformation you are going to get called on it.

    but the plain and simple fact is no one else alive today who claims to have studied w/ takamatsu ever met him.
    Simply incorrect. Quite a few of these folks are very much alive.

  2. reptileddp is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    43

    Posted On:
    4/16/2007 2:21pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hello...that pic is from hatsumi...those are his students when he took them to visit takamatsu.....

    that's how Tanemura has his few...couple photos of himself at takamatsu's home...becuase he braught his wife with him who took the photos.

    and all of the people there either continue to train with hatsumi/ under him and recoknize him as the grandmaster, except Tanemura. so...al you have done is proven my points.

    and all you did was find a pic on the internet and post it here....
    and every person in that photo will agree with this except possibly tanemura.

    also notice how tanemura never reveals these photos in any of his books?
    the only ones he uses are of the pics with Takamatsu alone, or of the pics his wife took when Hatsumi took him to see Takamatsu. ....?

    you have proven nothing except your ignorance.

    and how come no other instructor can show undisputed eveidence of training with Takamatsu?
    hatsumi has personal letters (alot) addressed with envoples mailed to him by takamatsu.
    thousands of photos, and old black and white film...which was put on video and can be purchased!

    show me any other certificate or Menkyo issued to anyone other than Hatsumi by takamatsu...or any other picture or video????

    Quote:
    but the plain and simple fact is no one else alive today who claims to have studied w/ takamatsu ever met him. ****

    and what i ment by this comment...which you so took out of context is in referance to those so claimed teachers of Tanemura who claimed to have studied with takamatsu...

    again....i am not gonna write takamatsu's biography on here for you....

    and stop trying to twist my words.

    i'll wait for when you can have undisputed evidence against Hatsumi or proof of someone else who trained under Takamatsu...and received something of mention.

    otherwise all this talk is just a waist of time. and i've got better things to do.
    so if anyone wants information relative to bettering their training or actual info on the history of the bujinkan or something they want to know, then that is a conversation i dont mind talking about....otherwise this is a bunch of BS conversation.

    or you can try to come to some bujinkan training and find out how real it is for yourself.
    and if you want to go to japan, or find yourself their when i am their training, i will take you along with me and you will be in for a rude awakening.
    and i mean that.

    and if you want to see some more pics like that...i can email them all to you.
    Last edited by reptileddp; 4/16/2007 2:26pm at .
  3. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    4/16/2007 8:21pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp

    Quote:
    but the plain and simple fact is no one else alive today who claims to have studied w/ takamatsu ever met him. ****

    and what i ment by this comment...which you so took out of context is in referance to those so claimed teachers of Tanemura who claimed to have studied with takamatsu...
    Again, you are wrong.

    Kumura Masaji began studying with Takamatsu at the age of 17 and received Menkyo Kaiden in Kukishinden Bojutsu at the age of 36. Additionally he was passed the Sokeship of the Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu from Takamatsu, a lineage rather different form the Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu that Takamatsu passed to Hatsumi. This material can be verified through the lineage chart maintained by the Kuki Family themselves.

    Takamatsu passed several lineages via both menkyp kaiden and sokeship to Sato Kinbei, among these Gikan Ryu after Akimoto's death and portions of the Kukishinden arts as well as Hontai Yoshin Ryu. Kinbei passed a consdierable amount of material to Tanemura including material realted to the Takamatsuden Arts. A court decision upheld the Gikan Ryu scrolls and Menkyo which moved from Takamatsu to Kinbei to Tanemura in the early 1990s as a side effect of a family conflict.

    You can keep making false claims about how Takamatsu had no students before or after Hatsumi all you want but the facts are against you. It would perhaps be wiser to find out more on the topic before attempting to make hard statements of supposed fact.

    and stop trying to twist my words.
    I haven't. If your intention has been for your words to convey other then how they have been read it is a fault on your end. You made a very specific statement about no one being alive who had trained with Takamatsu. This has been proven false. You have back peddled now and claimed that those now dead students of Takamatsu who trained and granted Menkyo to Tanemura did not in fact train with Takamatsu at all nor had they been granted anything in the way of Menkyo or Sokeship. Again, this has been proven false.

    i'll wait for when you can have undisputed evidence against Hatsumi or proof of someone else who trained under Takamatsu...and received something of mention.
    I have no evidence against Hatsumi. He claimed that his teacher granted him sokeship of nine traditions that his teacher and has attempted to teach those traditions in his own fashion. In traditional Japanese style he has accepted what his teacher taught and told him at face value.

    There are questions about the historicity of some but not all of the schools which were passed to Hatsumi by Takamatsu. This deals not with any question about Hatsumi's integrity nor really Takamatsu's. It does however call into question the stories behind that Takamatsu taught and where this material came from. That has been a large part of which this and related threads about the Bujinkan on these boards has been about.

    Hatsumi has never been foolish enough to claim no one else ever studied with his teacher or that any who made that claim were liars.

    This is something that you have done. You are wrong.
  4. reptileddp is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    43

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 12:16am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    like i said before....

    anything worth mentioning...

    your refering to the guy who wrote the kukishin ryu bojutsu book..

    he didnt get a menkyo kaiden in an art. you learned a few bojutsu techniques! that it.

    that's like saying iaido or kendo are complete martial arts. which they are not. but that's a different subject..and if you cant grasp it, then you dont train in real budo.

    sato kinbei never even met takamatsu. like i already said....

    some martial artists were in corraspondance with takamatsu...by mail only....

    they never studied under takamatsu or even met him. and this is fact.
    so if you want to back up someone who maybe found or "received a scroll" and did not actually learn anything or was taught buy a ligitamate teacher...then by all means go train under tanemura if you think your gonna learn Gikan ryu.

    ...or its like learning martial arts on a video tape, and trying to call yourself a grandmaster and go out and teach.


    and do you know whats in a gikan ryu scroll?

    we have 3 schools in the bujinkan not openly taught...
    1 of the scrolls only shows a list of names, no techniques
    the 2nd one does not even have a densho
    and the 3rd talks about building castles, spying on enemies etc....

    gikan ryu, kuomgqakure ryu, gyokushin ryu.....so even if sato kinbei got his hands on such a thing tio give to tanemura....it would do him no good unless he learned the kuden.
    which is not a very recognizable feet.

    and yes some of our other ryuha are studied in japan and their are other grandmasters of those arts....but they only teach the techniques.

    did you know the kuki families scrolls were lost, and it was takamatsu who re-wrote them a copy of his? this is why no one else in the world is allowed to use KUKISHINDEN RYU?
    they can only use KUKISHIN RYU....
    its' becuase takamatsu gave the KUKISHINDEN RYU to Hatsumi only. (with some added material)
  5. shmuel is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    337

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 2:55am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Seems like Sato Kinbei did meet Takamatsu:
    http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?Sato_Kinbei


    Also, don't forget Yoshio Fukumoto. The only person besides Hatsumi to get menkyo kaiden in Togakure Ryu from Takamatsu.
  6. reptileddp is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    43

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 5:59am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel
    Seems like Sato Kinbei did meet Takamatsu:
    http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?Sato_Kinbei


    Also, don't forget Yoshio Fukumoto. The only person besides Hatsumi to get menkyo kaiden in Togakure Ryu from Takamatsu.

    ok, first you guys dont want to take what hatsumi says, but your going to try to use Tanemura's website to qoute facts?

    come on....

    you know what though...i did here of someone receiving a menkyo kaiden in ninjutsu...cant remeber what ryu specifically and he had 4 students....

    but they all died in a car crash.


    hatsumi's sokeships are verified....many people have seen them and he is recoknized thru the japanese gov't.

    show me credentials for sato kimbei or tanemura showing a menkyo kaiden.....

    i am tired of repeating things.....maybe sato kimbei was in contact with takamatsu...however anything he received he never actually trained, in person with/ studied under takamatsu.

    and if Takamatsu ment to have anyone else become a grqandmaster of anything or pass on information and teach, why did he give/ hatsumi inherited his scrolls.

    and even if i was wrong, there is no other martial artists or lineage leading to any teachers alive who claim to be a grandmaster of anything who studied with takamatsu longer or even close to Hatsumi, or new/ had a personal relationship any where close to hatsumi and takamatsu.

    hatsumi has the letters and post marks to prove it, he has pictures, boxes and boxes of pictures and film and a lot of it. to include verified sokeships, and takamtsu's scrolls written by his teachers.

    no other martial artist can compare.

    have you even met hatsumi? have you ever trained bujinkan? have you ever been to the hombu?

    again my offer stands firm, anyone wishing to go to japan and train i will gladly take you to see him....in fact you can meet me at a train station i will pick you up and we will drive there together. and i really mean it.
    you will either become a bujinkan member .....or we'll never see your face again because you will be to ashamed....

    this is obviously an endless debate....so if you want to train with tanemura then go do that.
    or recognize someone else then that's your choice...

    but dont mock someone you havent even trained with and know nothing about.

    its like studying karate and trying to analize Judo....it doesnt work.

    and if you havent experienced it than all you words are garbage.
    and i mean hatsumi at hombu....not any instructor or some school in the states.

    brecause there's alot of bujinkan out there teaching...and alot of them are not good.
  7. reptileddp is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    43

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 6:10am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    here's a question...

    why doesnt tanemura talk about being in the bujinkan? he was a bujinkan member and studied under hatsumi who was the grandmaster...

    why doesn't any of his biographies talk about it? why doesnt he ever admit to it????

    this question seems to get avoided....
  8. shmuel is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    337

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 6:24am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    here's a question...

    why doesnt tanemura talk about being in the bujinkan? he was a bujinkan member and studied under hatsumi who was the grandmaster...

    why doesn't any of his biographies talk about it? why doesnt he ever admit to it????

    this question seems to get avoided....
    That is a good question. I also have noticed how Tanemua's website does not mention Hatsumi. IMO that's not acceptable. I think it's bad form.
  9. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 9:23am


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel
    That is a good question. I also have noticed how Tanemua's website does not mention Hatsumi. IMO that's not acceptable. I think it's bad form.
    When he presents his personal lineage chart he typically denotes Hatsumi but uses a broken line to signify the seperation between them. Whether Hatsumi ever performed a formal Hamon against Tanemura I do not know but Tanemura has acted as if he had which is part of why he sought out other qualified teachers of the arts he had learned from Hatsumi to be effectively recertified.
  10. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 9:28am


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Danny,

    Your faith in your own ignorance is a frightening reminder of how one can transform the Bujinkan into a cultic environment if they so choose to. You have chosen to wallow in your own ignorance rather then do any investigation and blindly spout inaccurate claims without bothering to do any of the legwork to verify them. There is nothing to be gained from engaging you at this time as you have made yourself impervious to fact.
Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 45678 91011 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.