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  1. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 2:34pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Reptile I'm confused trying to follow what you are arguing. Can you clarify:
    Are you saying that Takamatsu never taught anyone except Hatsumi? Or are you saying that Takamatsu did train others but they are all dead now?
  2. reptileddp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 3:15pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    all i am saying is that out of the people still alive/ can trace their lineage back to takamatsu
    hatsumi is the only legit grandmaster. yes there may still be some people alive who claim otherwise...mostly in debate right now..

    the dead dont matter...they never passed anything on to anyone.

    Tanemura, Kimbei, Ueno and Kimura... however tanemura's teachers did not train with takamatsu.
    he was in corraspondance thru mail with alot of martial artists and he mailed them techniques to try out. (that does not mean they trained with him.)

    and as i said before, show me something worth mentioning....(let me finish)

    if someone receives a menkyo kaiden in Bojutsu....

    bojutsu is only a piece of a martial art. it is not a complete art. do you know how many weapons there are in Kukishinden ryu? on top of the taijutsu and dakentaijutsu techniques??
    just because you have a menkyo kaiden does not make you a grandmaster.
    so again, to me is that worth mentioning or equal to a grandmastership? no.
    this is my point.

    and what i meant about hatsumi being the leading authority is in regards to Ninja. not Budo as a whole. becuase then there would be a leading authority for each ryu/style and there are many types of Budo.

    the main point here is this, Takamatsu intended for Hatsumi to be

    the Soke...of all the 9 ryu. and no one else.

    it is japanese culture and tradition for all students to train under

    their teacher. you do not just leave... the soke provides the direction of that art


    this is Japanese culture, custom and MA tradition.

    takamatsu appointed Hatsumi as Soke. which is above any menkyo

    kaiden. a SOKE does not have rank, they are above all ranks in that

    art.-that makes the soke the leading authority in that art.

    so why would people want to train under someone else?

    i have a little respect for Manaka...becuase he is not lying about his past.

    and i would reckognize tanemura as legit if he stuck to other MA he learned or chose a path more along the other chinese / karate styles he learned...but after he lied about his bujinkan expeirience, maybe he is lying about everything else as far as being a grandmaster.

    there are too many questions with him...and a lack of honesty. and i think that honesty and integrity should be some qualities of a grandmaster...so i dont really think he's lived up to it.
    and if he had stuck w/ hatsumi...who knows how much better he would be...

    tanemura is very skilled yes...but to many questions with his background.


  3. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 3:41pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    tanemura is very skilled yes...but to many questions with his background.


    No. Actually not at all. Tanemura has been very open with his background. He also the recognized soke of Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu (among others) by the governing boards. A feet that Hatsumi has not done for his Togakure-ryu or any other ryu-ha.


    Also for the sake of showing you how limited your knowledge is the grandmaster of Koto-ryu is
    Kaminaga Shigemi . His Lineage comes through Ueno Takashi and his considered the Lineage Grandmaster by the governing Ko Ryu boards
  4. reptileddp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 4:02pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    where'd ya here that? of his website?....

    do you have any facts from a legitimate website?

    it is a fact that tanemura hides his bujinkan history...there is plenty of proof of that.

    atleast hatsumi is not a liar. Hatsumi teaches from the scrolls...i go buy what is taught.

    if hatsumi's scrolls are fakes...then how can you prove tanemura's are real either?

    so every martial artist out there is all fake? its all made up?

    either way...i will stick to my opinion.

    i feel hatsumi's Budo/Ninpo is alot better than anyone else's.

    we teach alot more than a bunch of techniques...

    his training is much more realistic...

    can we end this crap now? let's move on.
  5. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 4:18pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can anyone here who knows about koryu state for the record exactly which of Hatsumi's 9 schools are in fact recognised as being genuine. Isn't there a long standing controversy about several of them? Especially the 3 ninjutsu schools.

    Ninjew, you wrote that Koto Ryu is recognised by the koryu associations in Japan. I didn't know that. I thought that all of the 9 ryuha (except for Kukishinden Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu) were in doubt.
  6. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 7:05pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp

    Hatsumi teaches from the scrolls...i go buy what is taught.
    Have you read from the scrolls? I have read bits and pieces from 3 ryu ha from copies Soke gave out. The are EXTREMELY vague so teaching from them or not teaching from them, it does not really matter. The are just like notes anyone takes during training, they are there to remind you what the kata was about.
    Also you seem to be vey ill informed about koryu and JMA. Stop posting about things you have only read about.
  7. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 7:31pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel
    Can anyone here who knows about koryu state for the record exactly which of Hatsumi's 9 schools are in fact recognised as being genuine. Isn't there a long standing controversy about several of them? Especially the 3 ninjutsu schools.

    Ninjew, you wrote that Koto Ryu is recognised by the koryu associations in Japan. I didn't know that. I thought that all of the 9 ryuha (except for Kukishinden Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu) were in doubt.
    Actually no. The 3 Ninjutsu ryu-ha are in doubt. The other 6 are legit, where the doubt come from is Hatusmi claims Grandmaster in them. He isn't the lineage Soke. If is Menkyo Kaiden and branch soke and uses as a based of the Bujinkan-ryu that he teaches now.
  8. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 7:33pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shinbushi
    Have you read from the scrolls? I have read bits and pieces from 3 ryu ha from copies Soke gave out. The are EXTREMELY vague so teaching from them or not teaching from them, it does not really matter. The are just like notes anyone takes during training, they are there to remind you what the kata was about.
    Also you seem to be vey ill informed about koryu and JMA. Stop posting about things you have only read about.

    David, is a 10th dan in the Bujinkan are worked as a translator for the Bujinkan in Japan. I would answer him.
  9. reptileddp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2007 4:22am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    SHINBUSHI,

    ok, your a 10th DAN in the bujinkan and you've been training for 20 years...

    can you honestly say that there is not sufficient evidence to support that Togakure Ryu is Legit or not?

    do you honestly think it was made up by Hatsumi/Takamatsu

    this is nothing that hasnt been said by soke, this year, the first 2 weeks of february soke stated that none of these other people who claimed to have learned from takamatsu actually trained with him.

    i will believe hatsumi's words, there is no evidence and i still have not been presented with any that sugests otherwise. and it does seem to make alot of sense.

    Hatsumi teaches what he was tuaght from takamatsu to include his phylosophy.

    do you think there are any other legit grandmasters who claim to teach what Takamatsu passed on?

    my intentions are not to bicker back and forth and argue on this subject. if i saw anything that suggests otherwise or a fact or proof i'll admit i am wrong.

    or do you think hatsumi is lying....
  10. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/18/2007 7:42pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    can you honestly say that there is not sufficient evidence to support that Togakure Ryu is Legit or not?
    There has been no 3rd party documentation to authenticate that it is legitimate.
    Which I could care less about as there is so little in that Ryuha compared with Kuki and Takagi.
    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    this is nothing that hasnt been said by soke, this year, the first 2 weeks of february soke stated that none of these other people who claimed to have learned from takamatsu actually trained with him.
    Depends who he is referring to. There is/was other Students of Takamatsu Sensei who have/had dojos in the Kansai area. Sean Askew went and trained with at least one I believe. There may be people falsely claiming they studied with Takamatsu Sensei, but there are also some who did.
    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp

    Hatsumi teaches what he was tuaght from takamatsu to include his phylosophy.

    do you think there are any other legit grandmasters who claim to teach what Takamatsu passed on?

    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    or do you think hatsumi is lying....
    Nope, I think he is teaching what Takamatsu Sensei taught him + his own experience. Now if Takamatsu pieced together Togakure Ryu or not we may never know. Again, I don't care. Now about who are the legitimate holders of some of the Fractured Ryuha, That gets into Japanese Bugei politics and is very messy and i won't touch that with a 10 foot pole.
    BTW if you are in the Bujinkan if you don't want to follow Our Soke's name or his teachers name with Sensei, at least take the time to Capitalize it. It looks rude.
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