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  1. MONGO is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 11:39pm

    supporting member
     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shodan doesn't carry the same weight here in Japan that it does in the US. There isn't a standardized curriculum for knowing all of the throws and ground work and I don't know if any of the 4th dans in my dojo can do them all. Usually, someone is a specialist in a particular series of techniques and they can answer the finer points of the waza.

    Then again, no one here opens a dojo without 30 or more years of Judo practice unless they are a former Olympian/All Japan Champion.

    Knowledge of the 40 throws is not all that important to Competitive Judoka in my opinion.

    As for the Kata issue. I know guys that don't do it and I know guys that take it very seriously on top of their competition concerns. Some people (myself included) think that Kata practice builds muscle memory and helps my body learn the feelings for the Kuzushi and Kake portions of the throws. The set ups are not the same as in randori but I never would have been able to learn a proper Uchimata without the Nage no Kata.
  2. Ronin.74 is online now

    霍氏八极拳徒弟

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 11:43pm


     Style: CMA,Muay Thai ,Yudo,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for all the recommendations
  3. Coach Josh is online now
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    Silent Guardian

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2007 9:48am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If this shows up again sorry, but I dont think the post I made last night went through.

    Going to answer a bunch of questions.

    Why do we have the USJA, USJF, and USJI? I am answering this in the simplest way without a history lesson.
    The USJF was the first organization run by the Japanese/Americans. The Americans believed they was being discriminated and left to start the USJA. In order for the US to compete in Judo at the Olympics there needed to be one governing body so the USJI was formed to be over both groups.

    What are some good books for Judo?
    Best Judo - I relied on this for most of my promotion stuff.
    Kodokan Judo - Good book with some bad pictures
    Canon of Judo - Great book for alot of techniques
    Judo Heart and Soul - Very inspiring book from one of Americas best Judokas, Hayward Nishioki
    Ippon series - Ippon books published a bunch of books focusing on one technique or group of techniques. Uchimata, Haraigoshi, Seoinage, Taiotoshi, Armlocks, Pickups, Grips and Russian Judo are all must haves. They give alot of variations to just one throw with different setups, grips and entries.

    DVDs and videos are also a must have for Judo. Due to the dynamic nature of the sport its a must have to get a good visual of the technique.
    Neil Adams - Gokyu This does all the textbook throws and then shows them used in competition
    Koga - A New Wind If you don't know who this guy is look him up. This video gives you a chance to see Koga and how he setup his throws. Intresting note about Koga he won second place at the ALL Japan Open at about 80kg when all the others was 100kg plus. He lost to Ogawa in the finals who also fights in Pride.
    Jeon - Korean Judo Master Great video from another dynamic Judo player.
    Udo Quellmaz - Cant remember video name but a great video for lightweight Judo players
    Jimmy Pedro - cant remember name either another good competition video
    Mifune- this one is all over You Tube its about an hour and a half and real old school Judo but a great look at alot of techniques.

    How does rank from other countries translate to America?
    If you are a BB with the proper documentation from your countries federation then there will be no problem. In America they have a cirriculm setup that says you need to know X stuff to get this rank, but if you fight well you will still get a BB. I know plenty of competitors with BB that don't know half the techniques or even how to say them in Japanese but will plant you on your head in a heartbeat. Hell I know a blind Judo player with a BB who doesn't know one dam word of Japanese and still trashes everyone, ex wrestler and a badass on the mat.
  4. Ronin.74 is online now

    霍氏八极拳徒弟

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2007 10:36am


     Style: CMA,Muay Thai ,Yudo,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jkartigue
    If this shows up again sorry, but I dont think the post I made last night went through.

    Going to answer a bunch of questions.

    Why do we have the USJA, USJF, and USJI? I am answering this in the simplest way without a history lesson.
    The USJF was the first organization run by the Japanese/Americans. The Americans believed they was being discriminated and left to start the USJA. In order for the US to compete in Judo at the Olympics there needed to be one governing body so the USJI was formed to be over both groups.

    What are some good books for Judo?
    Best Judo - I relied on this for most of my promotion stuff.
    Kodokan Judo - Good book with some bad pictures
    Canon of Judo - Great book for alot of techniques
    Judo Heart and Soul - Very inspiring book from one of Americas best Judokas, Hayward Nishioki
    Ippon series - Ippon books published a bunch of books focusing on one technique or group of techniques. Uchimata, Haraigoshi, Seoinage, Taiotoshi, Armlocks, Pickups, Grips and Russian Judo are all must haves. They give alot of variations to just one throw with different setups, grips and entries.

    DVDs and videos are also a must have for Judo. Due to the dynamic nature of the sport its a must have to get a good visual of the technique.
    Neil Adams - Gokyu This does all the textbook throws and then shows them used in competition
    Koga - A New Wind If you don't know who this guy is look him up. This video gives you a chance to see Koga and how he setup his throws. Intresting note about Koga he won second place at the ALL Japan Open at about 80kg when all the others was 100kg plus. He lost to Ogawa in the finals who also fights in Pride.
    Jeon - Korean Judo Master Great video from another dynamic Judo player.
    Udo Quellmaz - Cant remember video name but a great video for lightweight Judo players
    Jimmy Pedro - cant remember name either another good competition video
    Mifune- this one is all over You Tube its about an hour and a half and real old school Judo but a great look at alot of techniques.

    How does rank from other countries translate to America?
    If you are a BB with the proper documentation from your countries federation then there will be no problem. In America they have a cirriculm setup that says you need to know X stuff to get this rank, but if you fight well you will still get a BB. I know plenty of competitors with BB that don't know half the techniques or even how to say them in Japanese but will plant you on your head in a heartbeat. Hell I know a blind Judo player with a BB who doesn't know one dam word of Japanese and still trashes everyone, ex wrestler and a badass on the mat.
    I think that this would best describe the outlook on BB qualification outside of the U.S., or at least in Korea.
    Thanks for all the info.
  5. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2007 10:59am

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jkartigue
    Judo did not have randori at the very start and kata was done alot differently in the beginning. This is why Kano wrote on the importance of kata. It wasn't until later on that the style of randori we do today was allowed. Knowing this can shed some light on the why the have it. Then as with most things its tradition and noone goes against tradition. Right?

    Uh ... Huh?

    Randori predates the advent of Judo by almost a century. Kano even wrote about how tthe schools of Jujitsu developed Randori from it historical precursor called Nakori ai (sp?). Additionally, the two major branches of Jujitsu from which Judo was derived, Kito and Tashin shin'yo (I think), placed a great deal of emphasis on Randori - though their teaching progression of it and how it fit into the mix of their curriculum was obviously quite different.

    Kano wrote that the 'higher' forms of Kata were the key to a deeper understanding of Judo. Given the above paragraph I wrote, I can't see how your speculation as to why he felt that way is remotely valid.

    I'm not suggesting people have to agree with what Kano believed. But are you suggesting Randori from 100 years ago was qualitatively different enough from today that Judo and Jujitsu practitioners from that day wouldn't recognize today's Randori as just more 'free practice' just as they practiced? Because, if so, I'd appreciate if you could point me in the right direction of the historical references to support the idea that Randori 110 years ago meant something entirely different than what it means today.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 1/05/2007 11:03am at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  6. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2007 12:08pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jkartigue
    Judo did not have randori at the very start and kata was done alot differently in the beginning. This is why Kano wrote on the importance of kata. It wasn't until later on that the style of randori we do today was allowed.
    I think you're very much mistaken, one of the founding tenets of Judo is the effectiveness of randori as a training tool. I suggest you actually read one of the books you recomended (Kodokan Judo), Kano writes at length of the importance of free sparring at the begining of that book.
  7. Coach Josh is online now
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    Silent Guardian

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2007 12:45pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually it was called Randori no Kata in the beginning and was not the totally free form that we do today. It was more of a give and take or 50/50. The style of randori offered by the Kodokan was meant to be safer and for health and physical education benefits. This way of practicing lead to the better development of techniques. While it was free fighting there was more of an order to it like a kata. This allowed for the students to be able to perform better in the early competitions. What I am trying to say in my limited vocabullary is that there wasn't such a clear cut difference between kata and randori that we see today. While I may have come off as ignorant by saying there was ONLY kata its not how I meant that statement. I am sorry for the confusion.
  8. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2007 1:17pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    jkartique,

    Do you know you are describing my understanding of what consists of Jijitsu's Randori historical precusor, Nakori ai, to the proverbial "T" ?

    Kano referred to Nage No Kata and Katame No Kata together as Randori No Kata. It has never been my impression of what he wrote that actual Randori as free practice was those katas. It is my understanding that, if anything, the olden 'higher' Kata was practiced in a fashion far more like Nakori ai than the 'higher' Kata of Judo you see practiced today. But still my impression was that was distinct from actual Randori.


    Again, I'd appreciate it if you could point me in the right direction for your historical reference.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 1/05/2007 1:23pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  9. Coach Josh is online now
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    Silent Guardian

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2007 1:40pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I went to Judo Info Site and reread some articles and it seems I am wrong when I said there was no free fighting. It is stated that free fighting was the norm and kata came later. I believe my stupidity came from something I was told or just misread somewhere. I just remember either reading or being told that randori they way we do it now isn't the way it was done "back in the day". Oh well thanks Tom for making me look up stuff and break me out of my ignorance. I have a good idea who I got that info from now and will smack him when I see him.

    The next time I go to the Kodokan I will have a discussion with on of the international instructors on this matter. I promise.
    Last edited by Coach Josh; 1/05/2007 1:45pm at .
  10. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2007 2:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jkartigue
    I think we tend to forget why kata was made. For a long period of time people in Japan where not allowed to fight each other in combat. This was a way of eliminating the samurai life style. The katas where made to allow for training of martial arts within the law of the time. Judo did not have randori at the very start and kata was done alot differently in the beginning. This is why Kano wrote on the importance of kata. It wasn't until later on that the style of randori we do today was allowed. Knowing this can shed some light on the why the have it. Then as with most things its tradition and noone goes against tradition. Right?
    Incorrect. Kata predates the change in the bushi class. One of the main factors in the formation of kata was that it was a phyisical textbook. The majority of pple were actually illiterate and kata was a way to hand down the principles of the school and train pple who wouldn't read.

    Secondly RANDORI is the term Kano used for his practice and it was in judo from the start. He still was following a practice, mostly discontinued at that time, of free sparring. It was called many things from school to school. According to JUDO (JUJUTSU) by Kano he seems to place more focus and see more benefit on Randori than he does in kata. Kata is seen as a way to practice and understand the technique but the real benefits of training is in randori. According to Kano you don't need kata if you are training for self defense.
    ______
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    RIP SOLDIER

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    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
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