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  1. leere_form is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 8:13am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judobum
    I know Ron very well. He was a teammate of mine for many years and my coach in the later part of my career after he formed his own club. He was also the MC at my wedding.
    that's really cool! tell him his fame is spreading, next time you see him. =)
  2. El Neko is offline
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    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 9:37am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that any practitioner with serious aspirations toward becoming a teacher will make it a point to maintain proficiency in all canonical techniques for the very reason you stated.
    wouldn't that also mean learn Kata? (since Kata is part of the Canon)

    I repeat, I freaking hate kata, but once a year (Camp), I make it a point to get certified in one Kata, I hate it, is freaking boring as hell, but it will help me down the road if I know more than Nage and Katame no Kata.

    I don't believe that you won't be a good teacher if you don't know kata/if you only do kata, you will definitively have certain level of expertise in an especific area; but I don't see why if you're a competitior (providing that you want to be a instructor too), you can't make time to learn Kata.

    if nothing else, is part of the curriculum
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Yeah, you're probably right.

    But still, something about having a black guy or a lesbian jump out from behind a garbage can yelling "SURPRISE GONG SAU" at any of your big-named RBSD kooks makes me giggle like a little girl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    There are two kinds of members on MAP:

    1. LARPers/Partial Artists
    2. People who haven't heard about Bullshido.
    The Mighty McClaw to Fox when refusing to fight AnnaT.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Don't fight girls? When are you living, the 1850's? I suppose you think they shouldn't work or vote either.
    Get with the times and punch a chick.
    Wingchundo's response after I called him a "*****"

    Quote Originally Posted by wingchundo View Post
    Hey, I resemble that remark!

    Ok, time for a snappy comeback.... uh...

    OK. Here goes.

    You are what you eat!
  3. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 11:53am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Neko687
    if nothing else, is part of the curriculum

    Kata for Kata sake? I suppose if you look at it as a pure art. However, in Jigoro Kano's writings, I don't get the impression he looked at Kata that way.


    The real question is not whether the Kata is "complete" in the sense it is a teaching tool (that's the 'politics' aspect I mean to sidestep). But, it is how do you demonstrate and develop a standard?

    How do you know your method of demonstrating the particulars of a movement is the right way when you yourself can't "push it to the limit" and make the particular movement work against someone of equal skill as you? A particular individual may know a move okay, but can't really use it unless they are working with a relative scrub to their level. But, in those situations, chances are they could make pretty much anything work. So, the question is whether the failure at more equal levels of training partners/competitors is due to the circumstance of the individual's learning, or due to a defect in the curriculum of what they are learning.

    Obviously some who learn it went off and tried it in competition. That will eventually become the standard. Then what? How do the refinements make it back if the teachers themselves did not do this? Will they just continue to show the less refined way?


    I find Judobum's comment that high level competitors don't have a use for Kata quite interesting. Yet, many still learn the Kata. Does this mean the vast majority of competitors who choose to learn Kata do it solely for the prestige of a higher Dan? Is this really an ego and/or image issue? Perhaps. But I suspect there is a little more to it.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 1/04/2007 11:57am at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  4. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 12:31pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The old kata vs. competition debate. Judo kata is done in pairs with a cooperative partner. The set pattern of movements done by the attacker (uke) generate a response from the thrower (tori). While kata will help you generate an understanding of the 15 techniques that you do. It doesn't develop adaptive skills for a technique. Uke is generally pushing forward and moving at a pace not done in competition. I have done kata for my belt test and have been graded as "pedistrian at best". I am not good at kata but I can do it.

    The worst part about kata is the kata "experts". I get so bored listening to them talk about the dam thing just get up and do it tell me whats wrong and let me fix it. I really dont care that in 1901 they implementd the butt flex to enhance the stregnth of the whatever. Most competitors problems with kata is the people that profess doing it. These are the people who don't compete. We get tired of hearing how much our Judo sucks in a "technical" aspect when they can't throw or submit us during randori when we are at half speed. Technical my ass.

    Kata has its place. I like using it for beginners in some form or fashion to help generate an understanding of Judo and the techniques. I don't like the way I was shown kata. "Ok your up for shodan learn this kata, ok bye." Our club didn't stress kata so we didn't put much effort into it. After a few years I see its importance but dont see its importance for just black belts. I think that plays the biggest part in most Judokas understanding of kata. If their instructor liked it then they more than likely did too.

    In today's martial arts enviroment its tough out there. With McDojo's and fight clubs all over the place what martial art can someone go to that offers the most? I really think its Judo. No disrespect to BJJ or anything else but Judo has the most comprehensive cirriculm out there. Standing, ground, striking(though not in competition its still part of Judo), kata, competition, self defense, and some culture(for any LARPers out there you still get to wear gis and speak a forgien language). Plus the one big advantage of Judo over most martial arts ITS PRACTICED ALL OVER THE WORLD. Judo is the same all over some places are better at it than others and have some different approaches but you better believe they all know Osotogari and jujigatame.
  5. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 12:48pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Excellent post above jkartique.

    I extremely disagree with the statement "you can't be a good teacher if you don't know kata". You can't be a good kata teacher, that's for sure. But kata doesn't have much to do with the rest of judo. It relates to it but it's not necessary to learn anything else. It can be a useful tool in the right hands but it's by no means necessary. The best teacher I ever had knew nothing about kata and would refer his students out to other instructers for gradiing prep for kata.

    The biggest problem I have with kata is it demonstrates only one particular method of executing a technique. The beauty of judo is it's adaptability. You can modify techniques to suit your style, body type, movements, etc. Kata is the opposite of that. You must execute the kata a specific way, right down to the stepping and hand position. To me, that's completely contrary to what judo is.

    As to high level competitors doing kata, I'd like to know if you've actually spoken to any of them about it. I have and the general response is that it's something you do to get your dan grades. Ask your typical international competitor their feelings on kata and I think you'll usually get a snicker. It's just something that takes time away from the stuff that really matters. Why practice a kata full of throws that are done in a way you don't do them? As a beginner there might be lessons for you from that. A higher level competitor doesn't need that.
  6. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 1:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judobum
    I extremely disagree with the statement "you can't be a good teacher if you don't know kata".
    I did not mean to imply that, if that was your impression.


    Quote Originally Posted by Judobum
    As to high level competitors doing kata, I'd like to know if you've actually spoken to any of them about it. I have and the general response is that it's something you do to get your dan grades. Ask your typical international competitor their feelings on kata and I think you'll usually get a snicker. It's just something that takes time away from the stuff that really matters. Why practice a kata full of throws that are done in a way you don't do them? As a beginner there might be lessons for you from that. A higher level competitor doesn't need that.

    The only competitor of note that I have spoken to about Judo Kata is Shiro Oishi and not really in depth yet. (On a related note, he acheived a Shichidan last April. His comment was all the belts, including his were meaningless. When I asked him why go through the effort of getting the higher belts, he said: "Good question." :smile:)

    So if I understand you correctly you saying it really is an ego thing to the competitors, in your opinion. Is this right? Or, is there something in the rulebook that says you have to be a Sandan or above to be in the Olympics? That's not my impression.

    To me, competitors seem to be the least concerned with their image and choose to concentrate on their performance. But they aren't all Shodan (or Brown belt even). So why bother if it just takes away from time better spent "training" something? All of them doing it for the shits and giggles along with another topic of idle party conversation doesn't seem very ... Judo.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  7. El Neko is offline
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    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 1:23pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judobum
    I extremely disagree with the statement "you can't be a good teacher if you don't know kata". You can't be a good kata teacher, that's for sure. But kata doesn't have much to do with the rest of judo. It relates to it but it's not necessary to learn anything else. It can be a useful tool in the right hands but it's by no means necessary. The best teacher I ever had knew nothing about kata and would refer his students out to other instructers for gradiing prep for kata.
    like I said, the fact that the instructor doesn't know about competition or kata doesn't make them a bad teacher, but Kata is a good starting point when it comes to explain a new technique, hell, I believe that the way you tweak your throws is totally different than the way I tweak mine, but if you were to explain a throw to me the easiest way would be to go back to basics, show me the traditional way to perform the throw and let me tweak it until it works for me.

    However a agree to a certain extend to your point that there should be a different requirement, or a different way to get points towards promotion geared to competitors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    Kata for Kata sake? I suppose if you look at it as a pure art. However, in Jigoro Kano's writings, I don't get the impression he looked at Kata that way.
    can you explain a little more your point here?
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Yeah, you're probably right.

    But still, something about having a black guy or a lesbian jump out from behind a garbage can yelling "SURPRISE GONG SAU" at any of your big-named RBSD kooks makes me giggle like a little girl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    There are two kinds of members on MAP:

    1. LARPers/Partial Artists
    2. People who haven't heard about Bullshido.
    The Mighty McClaw to Fox when refusing to fight AnnaT.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Don't fight girls? When are you living, the 1850's? I suppose you think they shouldn't work or vote either.
    Get with the times and punch a chick.
    Wingchundo's response after I called him a "*****"

    Quote Originally Posted by wingchundo View Post
    Hey, I resemble that remark!

    Ok, time for a snappy comeback.... uh...

    OK. Here goes.

    You are what you eat!
  8. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 2:52pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think we tend to forget why kata was made. For a long period of time people in Japan where not allowed to fight each other in combat. This was a way of eliminating the samurai life style. The katas where made to allow for training of martial arts within the law of the time. Judo did not have randori at the very start and kata was done alot differently in the beginning. This is why Kano wrote on the importance of kata. It wasn't until later on that the style of randori we do today was allowed. Knowing this can shed some light on the why the have it. Then as with most things its tradition and noone goes against tradition. Right?

    Proper technique doesn't only come from kata. Proper technique comes from hours and hours of training and competitors realize that they can be more effective when they don't restrict themselves to one way of doing things. This allows for the expanded expression of Judo. Take a look at Koga Toshihiko adaptations of throws. They are magnificant. I bet he didn't spend alot of time on kata. Old school Judo and new wave Judo are at odds right now in the community until they get their **** together we will always have this arguement.
  9. El Neko is offline
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    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 3:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I got a question though, how much do the requirements to attain a higher rank differs from one association to other, or say from the associations in North America/Europe to the Kodokan??
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Yeah, you're probably right.

    But still, something about having a black guy or a lesbian jump out from behind a garbage can yelling "SURPRISE GONG SAU" at any of your big-named RBSD kooks makes me giggle like a little girl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    There are two kinds of members on MAP:

    1. LARPers/Partial Artists
    2. People who haven't heard about Bullshido.
    The Mighty McClaw to Fox when refusing to fight AnnaT.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Don't fight girls? When are you living, the 1850's? I suppose you think they shouldn't work or vote either.
    Get with the times and punch a chick.
    Wingchundo's response after I called him a "*****"

    Quote Originally Posted by wingchundo View Post
    Hey, I resemble that remark!

    Ok, time for a snappy comeback.... uh...

    OK. Here goes.

    You are what you eat!
  10. Tomas Drgon is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 4:26pm


     Style: n/a

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Last edited by Shuma-Gorath; 1/30/2007 4:16pm at .
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