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  1. ChinoXL is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2007 6:42am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: bjj, san-da, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    serious questions for judo guys

    Hello judo folks; i have a question(s):
    Does judo a. are the judo katas always performed against another individual or do they have single person kata ie. karate.
    b. how many katas are in judo
    c. how many are you required to attain in order to become black belt?
  2. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2007 7:25am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    a. paired
    b. a lot
    c. nage no kata only (at least here)

    judoinfo.com is your friend

    why am i posting in dhs?
  3. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2007 3:44pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Judo katas are always done with a partner since it's hard to demonstrate throws and ground techniques by yourself. The katas I know of are nage-no-kata (the main one, consisting of throws only), goshin-jitsu (a self-defense kata), there's a groundwork kata and juno-kata which is apparently usually performed by women for some reason I don't know.

    You have to do nage-no-kata for your shodan (first degree black belt), 3 out of the 5 sets Katas are the reason I'm still a shodan despite being a relatively successfull international competitor back in the day. I hate them and think it's silly to make competitors do highly choreographed and non-dynamic katas that need to be done "just so"... but that's just my opinion.
  4. leere_form is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2007 3:53pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hey judobum, do you know ron angus? i got his book "competitive judo" for christmas, and it's really awesome. it says he lives and trains in ontario.

    some of the stuff about gripping has really helped me level the playing field with some of the bigger guys in my club.
  5. El Neko is offline
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    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2007 4:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A) always paired

    B)
    .....Nage no Kata: forms of throwing
    .....Katame no Kata: forms of grappling
    .....Ju no Kata: forms of gentleness
    .....Kodokan Goshin Jutsu: modern self defense
    .....Kime no Kata: forms of decision
    .....Koshiki no Kata: forms antique
    .....Joshi Judo Goshinho: women's self defense
    .....Itsutsu no Kata: forms of five
    .....Renkoho Waza: arresting techniques
    .....Kime Shiki: forms of decision
    .....Seiryoku Zen'yo Kokumin Taiiku: maximum-efficiency physical education
    .....Nage-Waza-Ura no Kata: forms of counterthrows
    .....Gonosen no Kata: forms of counters
    .....Kaeshi no Kata: forms of counters
    .....Go no Kata: forms of hardness
    .....Renraku No Kata: forms of combinations (I believe this is only for the USJA)

    http://www.judoinfo.com/katamenu.htm

    (I have no idea if there's any more katas)

    C) Nage no Kata is required for brown belt (I believe USJA just ask you to know one Kata, so you can get away with any other Kata that's easier)

    I freaking hate the Katas, but they're a nice tool to get you to work certain things, and once you stop being a competitive judoka, the Katas will help you in order to attain and maintain knowledge (In my humble opinion)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Yeah, you're probably right.

    But still, something about having a black guy or a lesbian jump out from behind a garbage can yelling "SURPRISE GONG SAU" at any of your big-named RBSD kooks makes me giggle like a little girl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
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    The Mighty McClaw to Fox when refusing to fight AnnaT.

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  6. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2007 5:30pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judobum
    Katas are the reason I'm still a shodan despite being a relatively successfull international competitor back in the day. I hate them and think it's silly to make competitors do highly choreographed and non-dynamic katas that need to be done "just so"... but that's just my opinion.

    I may be off base, but you sound a little resentful you are still a shodan as opposed to being a higher grade dan. So, you seem to be the right person to ask:


    As a competitor, don't you typically have less than a dozen moves which you actively use with any degree of technical proficiency? What works for you may not be ideal for others. Because of this, don't how do you separate a practitioner from a teacher?

    Sidestepping the potential politics involved ... If using the katas, in your words, are "silly" for the higher Dans, how do you suggest the art of Judo maintain a minimum standard of proficiency in moves which don't really work in Randori/Shiai for a particular individual? What alternative do you propose as a standard for those who wish to teach a well rounded curriculum as opposed to just practice?
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
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  7. nerveasian is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2007 7:50pm


     Style: Getting mounted

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tom, I obviously don't have judobum's credentials, but if nobody minds, I'll take a stab your question. I have actually seen some of this in judo, and some of my friends who are collegiate wrestlers have told me that the phenomenon you're describing does sometimes occur and puts students at a disadvantage, so it's worth thinking about.

    From what I've seen, it is definitely the case that even the most successful competitors have a small set of favorite techniques. However, I don't think this is reason to worry that any useful techniques might disappear from judo if kata were eliminated, for a few reasons. Firstly, most of the techniques favored by successful competitors tend to high-percentage in general and not terribly idiosyncratic; for example, o soto gari and uchi mata come up again and again because they're so effective. Secondly and much more importantly, I think that any practitioner with serious aspirations toward becoming a teacher will make it a point to maintain proficiency in all canonical techniques for the very reason you stated. Especially in a competitive sport like judo, where tournament success is a source of prestige, no teacher wants his students to be less prepared for matches than possible. I think teachers realize that their favorite techniques may not work for all of their students, and for that reason will teach all canonical techniques to their students because knowing more techniques increases the probability of finding the ones that do work and winning matches, and instructors have a strong incentive to see their students win matches.

    The same sort of Darwinistic mechanism is at work in most competitive sports. In BJJ, for instance, Carlson Gracie preferred to pass the guard from his knees rather than standing, and this is reflected in the curriculum and you see lots of his students favoring guard passes from the knees, but you never hear people saying "man, those Carlson guys really suck at standing guard passes." More importantly, when competitors start feeling that they're losing matches because of the limitations of their instructors, they'll go elsewhere for their instruction. The standing guard passes are still taught to students with considerable rigor, and the students who find them to be effective still use them in competition.

    Finally, I'm really sure about the degree to which kata are effective in maintaining minimum proficiency. It seems like what you're describing as a bad consequence of a world without kata is already happening to the full extent that it could ever realistically happen, and the martial arts community is already dealing with effectively as students compete and switch schools and styles.

    "Eliminating kata vs. sustenance of the canon" just seems like a false dilemma to me, though I'll admit that I don't have a huge amount of experience and defer to those who do.
  8. leere_form is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2007 11:16pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i think the idea of kata as a method of learning a particular concept is wonderful.

    for example: the ju no kata is about yielding. the go no kata is about not yielding or applying force.

    since all the techniques in those kata have that application in common, i think including some short kata in workout or optionally after class would be a great way to help people develop their judo.

    also: uchikomi is kata, just without the "unifying concept" of the aforementioned kata.

    and a hell of a lot shorter.

    i've never done any judo kata, but i look forward to it as a learning experience, and to get mad technical skillz.
  9. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 8:00am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    I may be off base, but you sound a little resentful you are still a shodan as opposed to being a higher grade dan. So, you seem to be the right person to ask:


    As a competitor, don't you typically have less than a dozen moves which you actively use with any degree of technical proficiency? What works for you may not be ideal for others. Because of this, don't how do you separate a practitioner from a teacher?

    Sidestepping the potential politics involved ... If using the katas, in your words, are "silly" for the higher Dans, how do you suggest the art of Judo maintain a minimum standard of proficiency in moves which don't really work in Randori/Shiai for a particular individual? What alternative do you propose as a standard for those who wish to teach a well rounded curriculum as opposed to just practice?
    I do have around a half dozen or so moves which I can consistantly apply against a fully resisting opponent on a consistant basis. However that doesn't mean I'm completely ignorant of the rest of the throwing techniques. I am "techinically proficient" to the degree that I know all of the throws and can demonstrate them on an opponent that isn't resisting.

    Kata doesn't encompass all the moves either, just the ones included within the katas. Katas are more about demonstrating all the aspects of a particular technique. Being good at kata doesn't mean you know and can teach every judo technique, it just means you're good at showing the particular techniques in the katas you know and that particular form of the technique.

    Any particular instructor can teach a "well rounded" curriculum including kata if they choose. The grading requirements are pretty much the same for competitors and non-competitors at the moment except that non-competitors can get points towards their belt from refereeing and other non-competitive judo techniques rather than competitions. I don't have a problem with that but would like to see a competitive focussed option as well with a more clearly defined level of competitive points for a batsugan belt award (award by competitive performance).

    As a sports judoka I don't particularly have any use for kata at this point in time. I also don't really see myself ever really wanting to do kata. I'd prefer to use my time on developing new variants on techniques, grips and ne-waza. I understand why kata is there and would agree that it has the potential to be a good learning tool but I still would maintain it's more of a thing for non-competitors. I've never met a high level competitor that had any use for kata, before or after their fighting careers were done.
  10. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 8:04am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by leere_form
    hey judobum, do you know ron angus? i got his book "competitive judo" for christmas, and it's really awesome. it says he lives and trains in ontario.

    some of the stuff about gripping has really helped me level the playing field with some of the bigger guys in my club.
    I know Ron very well. He was a teammate of mine for many years and my coach in the later part of my career after he formed his own club. He was also the MC at my wedding.


    He's an excellent coach and was an incredible fighter in his time. He won the open division of the world masters on a hip that needed replacing the next year. He's a very very tactition and his grip work and ability to teach it to others is far superior to anyone I've ever met.

    He's a very friendly and approachable guy as well and always takes time for even the most novice of his students. Unfortunately his club is a fair distance away from me now so I can't really train there anymore, otherwise I'd probably be doing a lot more judo than I am now.
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