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  1. Askari is offline

    The Bottom Brick

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2007 3:00pm


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonuzaba
    "for years I thought chun makes me a great warrior, then I was invited for a friendly sparring session with a jiu jitsu friend of mine and he tied a knot on me 10 times out of 10 without me being able to land a hit." or something.
    Yep, that was me. Full WC instructor, then sparred with a buddy who did JJ and he RNC'd me 10 times out of 10. Now I return the favour and do the same for people who have never trained ground work.

    The fun part of the story is that we had just finished watching UFC 1 and I was commenting on how it couldnt be that easy, why didnt they just punch that Royce guy.

    I was converted on the spot but it took me a few years to find a school that I wanted to learn JJ from.

    My evil secret is that I have a wooden dummy in my basement beside the room that is covered in mats, and beside the heavy bag.
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  2. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/01/2007 3:28pm


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I tried it for about 6 mounths, in that time I never had to wear a mouth guard or a cup, any hits given or taken that hurt were accidents and I got tired of punching air. I mean hitting a focus mit was a rare occasion. The one school I went to had good conditioning at least and worked you pretty hard but contact was pretty much a no no. The second linage I tried was pretty much all forms work and some pretty basic drills. In wrestling we wrestled from the first practice and in boxing, even if I didn't hit people in the beginning I at least got to hit focus mits and the heavy bag.

    The first school was more informal but 2nd one with the bowing and Sifu this and Sifu that **** got to me. I was 30 years older than him and I was an ex-Marine. And he asked me if I wanted to become a warrior. Pissed me off. Only made 4 classes there and then moved back to boxing with some bjj thrown in.

    Last but not least the wing chun punch left a lot to be desired. Neither school had much power in their hitting.

    Other than that it was great.
  3. RunningDog is offline
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    nail conditioning

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2007 3:37pm


     Style: Rehab

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For now let me just link in the "what do chunners actually find useful" thread, which for a time turned into a comforting Wing Chun Anonymous group. We even had a 12-step as I recall.

    I'll answer the original question when I have the energy. It takes a lot: there are a lot of reasons.
  4. sochin101 is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/01/2007 4:06pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: No gym currently.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonuzaba
    I'm on a kind of sociological quest to find out the EXACT reasons/situation when people realised that they don't like -ing -un, it's not working for them, etc...
    I almost took up Wing Chun at a local dojo that offered a variety of MA.
    Here's the set-up: Worked with a guy (same place, different department). He did wing chun. He claimed the deadly, of course, and if he managed to corner me, he'd wax lyrical about centre line, chain punch and of course, lineage.
    The main thing that got me interested was that they had a group of guys that cross-trained, and brought other stuff into the lessons, with the instructor's blessing.

    So, this sounded cool. Mixing martial arts? Grappling and striking? Seemed like the way forward for a guy who'd studied bits of both, but never together.
    I was interested in visiting and seeing this stuff in action, but the invite never came. He did invite me to visit his home to train (I've related this in another thread, so I'll abridge it) and I eventually agreed.
    He showed me some stuff. It had sounded fine in theory, but I couldn't see it working in practice. He persuaded me to spar. I kicked him in the head, repeatedly. He couldn't make anything work. He was particularly vulnerable to round kicks and hooks.

    I don't think for a minute that he was indicative of every wing chun practitioner; I actually think he'd have been pretty **** at whichever MA he'd chosen, but that's the reason I discontinued my interest in wing chun.


    Welcome to the year 2BOND everybody!
    The year to bond... like get together... dude are you coming on to the entire forum?












    Yeah, I got it. 2007.
  5. Red512S is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2007 4:32pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Let's see, what made me stop -ing -un? Two classes made me stop. I was just so disappointed. I went to the classes to get a feel for some other perspectives on martial arts, thinking maybe I'd learn a thing or two. The instructor thought that he walked on water. I think the main reason I decided I didn't like it was because it was so blindingly obvious that it taught me ways to get my head knocked in. The whole class in a pigeon stance? No effective ground defense? Punching in a way that would damage my wrist over time? No thanks, I'll pass.

    Dave
  6. Askari is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2007 4:47pm


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sochin101
    He showed me some stuff. It had sounded fine in theory, but I couldn't see it working in practice. He persuaded me to spar. I kicked him in the head, repeatedly. He couldn't make anything work. He was particularly vulnerable to round kicks and hooks.

    I don't think for a minute that he was indicative of every wing chun practitioner; I actually think he'd have been pretty **** at whichever MA he'd chosen, but that's the reason I discontinued my interest in wing chun.
    No unfortunately what you are describing is indicitive of much __ing __un training. Many become so focused on "Forward Energy" and stretching their arms out in front of them that they become unable to deal with round attacks, or anything involving a fake.

    There are some great technical pieces in the style, you just need to throw out Chi Sao, lineage crap and the bowing to get to anything worth using. Oh and ditch the stance as well, the side stances dont work. The forward stance is pretty much a boxing stance, but change the hand positioning for god sakes.

    As for chain punching, well it can be made to work - if used at the appropriate time:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3Rx-W3kGrA
    Last edited by Askari; 1/01/2007 4:49pm at .
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  7. RunningDog is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/01/2007 4:47pm


     Style: Rehab

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sochin101

    Yeah, I got it. 2007.
    Oh. Took me a bit longer. Tony the Zebra, master of the obscure.

    So here it is, bulleted for ease of reading. Why I think _ing _un isn't much good. To clarify: my experience is 1 yr in a school affiliated with Wai Po Tang (UK), and about 7/8 years in a Keith Kernspecht/Leung Ting affiliated Wing Tsun school.

    1. Movements based on theory, not practice. The empirical method is abandoned in favour of pseudo-science claptrap.

    2. General lack of 'alive' training in most schools.

    3. Chi sao. The theory: develops softness, and the ability to respond to any attack. The reality: a very complex 2-man kata.

    4. Crap strikes. Arm punch? vertical fist? No. Just no. And where's the roundhouse kick?

    5. Crap footwork and evasive movement. I have never, ever seen 'correct' WT footwork under pressure. From anyone. And for ****'s sake protect your chin.

    6. WT vs WT sparring, LOL. :ingun: (had to get that smiley in somewhere)

    7. 'Lat sao' - WT's answer to sparring. If you haven't seen it, you basically stand foot to foot, all 4 feet in one line, and start chain punching each other's arms. Occasionally one of you launches a different attack, and the other tries to defend it. 6. Chun vs Chun sparring. Ridiculous, on the odd occasion it's actually done. Linear slap-fighting.

    8. Absurd charging structure, including paying for "information" at the higher grades. Thousands of pounds.

    9. Standing around talking instead of training. Very, very common.

    10. Too deadly for the ring/deadly strikes. Yes, it's true, a majority of chunners actually believe this myth. Apparently, finger strike to the throat is particularly deadly. And you can break the floating rib with a palm strike, etc etc, no rules my sifu would own in UFC, yadda yadda

    11. Anti-crappling. Doesn't work against a 1 month BJJ white belt. Sorry. Elbow to the spine = DEATH, lol

    12. Slippers

    13. Total lack of conditioning. And lifting weights is actually discouraged by a lot of instructors.

    14. The geek factor. Where do they all come from?

    15. The 'door security' factor. For some bizarre reason, quite a few doormen in the UK swear by _ing _un. I think this is because they're all huge, and only have to beat up drunk people. But that doesn't stop the 'doorman factor' from giving chunners another false source of legitimacy.

    This is by no means an exhaustive list.
  8. alex is online now
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    STOP POSTING!

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2007 4:54pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i did sit in on a few classes of wing chun

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...4&postcount=56

    all the instructors and students were terrible at fighting, basically. everything chunners do is basically the noob **** that gets beaten out of you in a week of sparring at any halfway decent school.
  9. Askari is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2007 4:55pm


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RunningDog
    15. The 'door security' factor. For some bizarre reason, quite a few doormen in the UK swear by _ing _un. I think this is because they're all huge, and only have to beat up drunk people. But that doesn't stop the 'doorman factor' from giving chunners another false source of legitimacy.
    Yeah, I worked as a doorman for years and the only official martial training I had prior to that point was __ing __un. And I used it effectively. Wish I had video. So it is more common then some might imagine.

    This doesnt include the wrestling I had done, the football and rugby I played through highschool and University.

    The __ing __un I trained in looks nothing like what I find on Youtube or Google, it seems a lot more like KyokoshinKai then anything else. Our club sparred full contact and entered Kickboxing tournaments. Perhaps I attended the mythical 'Real' __ing __un club that I hear so much about. AND I still lost to the first JJ guy I sparred with.
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  10. RunningDog is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/01/2007 5:08pm


     Style: Rehab

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Askari

    The __ing __un I trained in looks nothing like what I find on Youtube or Google, it seems a lot more like KyokoshinKai then anything else. Our club sparred full contact and entered Kickboxing tournaments. Perhaps I attended the mythical 'Real' __ing __un club that I hear so much about. AND I still lost to the first JJ guy I sparred with.
    We have less 'lawsuit jitsu' over here, so doormen are a lot happier just knocking people out, then carrying them outside. You don't need that much fighting skill to pull that off, just good timing with your sucker punch.

    When I was teaching, I tried to turn the club into something like what you've described, with lots of contact, throws and roundhouse kicks. But after a while, I realized it was too broken to fix, and all the other instructors were happily LARPing away regardless.
    Some things are just best left to die a natural death.
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