That didn't take long....

**UpaLumpa** · Posted On: 1/25/2007 11:43am

Originally Posted by patfromlogan

This asinine attitude exemplifies the evil stupidity and elitist crapola that flows so easily from the mouths of conceited youth.

Ignoring the fact that the schools that say the sort of nonsense you're agreeing with are inevitably the equivalent of very light step aerobics...

How absurd would it be for someone to say "football is for everyone, regardless of age". We're talking about an athletic endeavor that should require a fair amount of physicality, physicality that many 90 year olds (and of course 60+) are going to lack.

Getting in and coaching when you're older and have been doing something most of your life is a lot different than bringing in a 65 year old and expecting them to work at the same level as younger people, unless your school is crap.

**patfromlogan** · Posted On: 1/25/2007 8:12pm

At work today I feared that I'm just a sucker for Boyd's trolling: that of course he's a bright guy and MUST be just trolling, and I fell for it.

Originally Posted by UpaLumpa

expecting them to work at the same level as younger people, unless your school is crap.

Well, Upa, I can't recall that that (same level) was actually part of this.

2005 Age Group Breakdown of the top 25 US marathon runs:
AgeGroup Avg. Time Percent
M0-19 5:04:39 1.17%
M20-24 4:22:21 3.10%
M25-29 4:24:42 6.03%
M30-34 4:25:28 8.14%
M35-39 4:22:45 9.72%
M40-44 4:21:46 9.83%
M45-49 4:26:23 8.37%
M50-54 4:37:25 6.22%
M55-59 4:49:04 3.82%
M60+ 5:13:32 2.96% (take 'em out and shoot 'em division, I mean why do they even bother to show up, they can't WIN!!!!!!!)

and link to a Jon Bluming video, bout 1/2 way down, click on the picture - is that "live" enough for a guy near 80?

http://shoshindo.dk/kravmaga.htm - now to find out how to put it on you tube or this site or both.

**UpaLumpa** · Posted On: 1/25/2007 9:17pm

Participating is great, I hope to keep training far into senility like you obviously have done. I'd love to be competing in Masters divisions 20 years from now.

However, the pretend all-inclusivity of many schools ignores (or lies to prospective students) very real issues regarding the required physicality for a martial art.

**Boyd** · Posted On: 1/28/2007 6:28pm

Originally Posted by patfromlogan

At work today I feared that I'm just a sucker for Boyd's trolling: that of course he's a bright guy and MUST be just trolling, and I fell for it.

I wasn't trolling, but I wasn't saying what you thought I said either. My problem isn't with older people practicing martial arts, it's with martial arts being watered down to accomodate an unrealistically wide demographic, in particular people who are otherwise unwilling to put in the effort to fully reap the benefits of training in their respective style.

To elaborate: two people, both in their mid-50's, decide to start karate.

One has reoccuring knee and back injuries that prevent him from doing hard sparring and certain types of drills. However, in spite of his handicap, he trains as hard as he can, taking extra caution around exercises that could aggravate his condition.

The other is out of shape but otherwise has no debilitating factors, but has the mindset that because he is "old", he should not have to train as hard.

While the latter may appear harmless, in large numbers his mentality can be damaging to the integrity of martial arts, because it focuses on notions of unrealistic inclusion over quality. It tells school owners that they can decrease turnover by creating an easier, more "inclusive" curriculum.

I'd like to stress this isn't about every single person training to be a cage fighter, or about any perceived elitism, but rather the cold reality that any athletic endeavor is going to be inherently limiting. That's its nature. While it is possible to bring in more people by removing the athletic nature of martial arts...why would you want to?

**patfromlogan** · Posted On: 1/28/2007 10:03pm

I see your point better Boyd (and thanks for not ranting or giving me **** - I'm too old to learn those type of personal skills myself, but I'm sure that they have value).

My experience has been in pretty realistic arts that usually don't weaken the training for the elderly or infirm, thank God, and the older guys (and weaker people in general) in styles like Kyokushin or Hawaiian Kempo are expected to do the best they can, just like everyone else. That one can or can't make the jump rope buzz for ten minutes is just where people are at. like the Hawaiians say, "No shame, give 'em."

Oyama wrote that karate was beneficial for all ages (and made women more beautiful), he of course wasn't saying that 60 year olds would be smart to enter full contact knock down tournies.

p.s. The local karate tournie was hilarious when the "masters" fought. Guys being chewed out by the ref (who was at least 25 years junior) for going too hard, multiple injuries, big egos refusing to give up etc