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  1. Shinshoryu is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2007 12:57am


     Style: Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Humm
    When you say you don't handle 1/4 of the historical background, what do you mean by this ?

    You don't beleive it or you just don't subscribe to it?
    I believe it and agree. What I tried to say is that I just have a pretty rough idea of the whole, this idea was based on my training, some reading and some questioning. Now I can also add some historical information which I didn't have and that smooths out things even more.

    To explain to other people this "identity crisis" feeling that I share with you guys, I usually compare Aikido with a tool, in this case, a very nice looking tool brought from Japan, with no instructions or instructions only in Japanese. People with absolutely no clue about Japan, its language or its culture (in other words, pretty much the rest of the planet except for Japan) get their hands on this tool which is now being successfully exported. Once in their hands these people start to make up for the information they don't/can't/don't care to understand with their personal interpretations. At the end, this is how we end up with people all over the world hammering nails with a screwdriver (made in Japan), and what's worst, giving their best to develop better ways to do it.

    This is how I see it, hopefully it won't sound too arrogant, because I really think this is just a matter of a little bit of common sense that, as someone said, seems to be the least common of the senses, specially for some people in Aikido.
  2. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2007 4:06am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GRAB MY WRIST
    Dave,

    Happy new year to you.
    And to you mate.
    Do I need to start puching heavy bags? Cross train in boxing? Do I need to start whacking my uke? Granted this whacking of uke thingy is making me very unpopular among my aikido dojo mates.
    Focus mits, punch bags and yes, uke understanding that if they don't get out of the way whilst effectively doing something with the attacks thrown at them, they're going to get hit, are all much better ways to train than what many often do.

    I'm not advocating that we need to start altering the orthodox syllabus taught within aikido dojo (that would be arrogant of me) but, I do think that adding regular sessions of additional training to bring to the forefront of studentís minds, that aikido training methods are old and outdated.



    Here's one of my students working out on our full length bag

    There are some indirect methodology that my dojo mates are using to enhance/augment our striking capabilities. They are:
    1) doing Kendo type drills i.e., using shinai to hit each other ala yokomen with full force. Tori hits, uke defend, then we reverse the role.
    2) lots of ken/jo suburi. 200 cuts after every class.

    In your opinion, are these good drills to enhance our atemi capabilities?

    GMW.
    IMHO The fact remains that aikido isn't the best form of "self defence" thus, for present day aikido to have a more rounded approach then yes, students looking for aikido must cross train in some art/sport which has a reasonable amount of aliveness as part of its structure. From my own experiences, the 10 years I spent as a prison officer has given me valuable understanding concerning the dynamics of conflict. I'm no expert but at least I can hold my hands up and say I've had plenty of pressure testing opportunities and that sadly lacks with many aikido dojo and their instructors.

    To be honest, in terms of doing kendo drills, you'd be better off just applying more 'intent' to open handed atemi in both roles of uke and tori although, I can't deny that having skills in kendo has had a positive effect on my aikido but, Kendo is another long term study-art and not something which is picked up quickly.

    Of course being am iaidoka as well means that I'm all for ken/jo saburi but this will only condition the shoulders/forearms and provide a bit of mental discipline training.

    What I'm going to suggest is that you spend some time analysing the kihon you practice. Forget katatedori entirely during this process and focus entirely on how you'd deal with jabs, crosses and low kicks. In the initial stages uke will be relatively compliant but working completely on the premises that if he swings/kicks at you he will make full contact unless you deal with it/or move appropriately. What you'll quickly realise is that your techniques will almost exclusively need an atemi before and possibly during application.

    Forget shomen uchi yokomen uchi et al. Focus again on jabs, hooks, crosses, body punches to floating ribs, sternum face etc. Tori needs to build up the ability to lay in combinations before thinking about 'aikido' Uke's also need to learn that they have four limbs and start understanding that throwing one solitary attack isn't enough, if your jabbing, then jab left/right until tori has the opportunity to apply a technique (sounds like sparring doesn't it) as you guys get more experienced uke can become less compliant and more intent on hitting you, whilst you have more intent on applying technique (and this broaches on ara waza described earlier in this thread)

    The ULTIMATE problem with aikido will always exist no matter how "alive" you make your training, UKEMI has to exist for many of the techniques and applications thus, there is always going to be some form of compliance from uke because he/she needs to make the ukemi required form particular waza applied. Gumsheilds, mits and guards recommended.

    Once you get into this form of training you're going to quickly realise that aikido practiced in this way does not represent the aikido you're used to seeing in the dojo, indeed you'll also find that many of the more elaborate techniques are a waste of time from ara waza perspectives. You're going to do a lot of irimi/omote waza with only small amounts of tenkan.

    All that said, you must not neglect the traditional aspects of the art otherwise you'll eventually stop doing aikido and be doing some hybrid system, the key is balanced training in both traditional and contemporary. That's the difficult bit and Iím still working on it lol
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  3. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2007 11:16am

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     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    GMW, about aikido and atemi:

    Granted, I am a believer that atemi is crucial to aikido technique application.
    Let me see: thing is not about adding atemi (strikes) to aikido techniques, atemi are aikido techniques as grabbing techniques are judo techniques.

    Do I need to start puching heavy bags? Cross train in boxing? Do I need to start whacking my uke? Granted this whacking of uke thingy is making me very unpopular among my aikido dojo mates.
    What Dave says but a bit of boxing isn't going to hurt you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Humm
    To be honest, in terms of doing kendo drills, you'd be better off just applying more 'intent' to open handed atemi in both roles of uke and tori although,...
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Humm
    Of course being am iaidoka as well means that I'm all for ken/jo saburi but this will only condition the shoulders/forearms and provide a bit of mental discipline training.
    Slighty disagree. There's most in suburi than shoulder/forearms condition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Humm
    Once you get into this form of training you're going to quickly realise that aikido practiced in this way does not represent the aikido you're used to seeing in the dojo, indeed you'll also find that many of the more elaborate techniques are a waste of time from ara waza perspectives. You're going to do a lot of irimi/omote waza with only small amounts of tenkan.
    And things will start to resemble this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BpEzI7mleY

    Ed.: How do video?
    Last edited by DCS; 1/02/2007 12:34pm at .
  4. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2007 12:02pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS
    And things will start to resemble this:
    I enjoyed that mate, illustrates I must train harder.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  5. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2007 12:39pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lol

    Link fixed (after various "internal server error" messages).
  6. Bluto Blutarsky is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2007 10:35am


     Style: Mostly drinking. E-chaun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    Xingyi is this:







    Actually that is not xingyi, at least not proper xingyi that is practiced against someone, The problem is that like most cmas there is not a lot of good instruction out there that teaches with resistance and someone's later comments are right, most schools do in fact teach you to "do it solo" and never either drill with full resistance or spar on any level.

    I actually advise people to avoid cma schools and aikido that don't train properly and advise them to seek out a sportative MA that is "safe" as it is less likely to give you a load of crap. To someone who doesn't know better, it is safer to send them to a school in a system that is more "known" for training properly.

    The goal of this thread was not to **** on aikido, but to ask people to advise this guy properly which doesn't mean shitting on aikido, it means advocating training with resistance in a realistic manner.

    I know I didn't respond earlier because of the holidays so it is my fault, and I haven't had a chance to read this thread because it got so far ahead of me but I hope it isn't 10+ pages of just shitting on aikido.

    You want to **** on bad xingyi or bad aikido or whatnot then fine, I'll be the first in line to admit that you have a bigger chance of finding a jewish chinese person in any city than you do have of finding a school that trains properly in that city (or japanese one in aikido case).

    I will eventually catch up on this thread and hopefully be able to contribute after I've looked at the posts.
  7. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2007 10:52am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluto Blutarsky
    I actually advise people to avoid cma schools and aikido that don't train properly and advise them to seek out a sportative MA that is "safe" as it is less likely to give you a load of crap. To someone who doesn't know better, it is safer to send them to a school in a system that is more "known" for training properly.
    "Training properly" Hmm.. What exactly do you know about aikido, its origins, the principles which influence it and, the major issues which cause it such negative rep ? I'm suspecting very little. Perhaps you should have taken the time to read a few of my posts.
    The goal of this thread was not to **** on aikido, but to ask people to advise this guy properly which doesn't mean shitting on aikido, it means advocating training with resistance in a realistic manner.
    No.. I disagree; Aikido isn't what most people expect it to be and, if you'd read my posts on this subject you'd have known that. Aikido is often portrayed by IT'S OWN STUDENTS as something its not and, this is where it attracts the attention of people who do know what they talk about in terms of realistic 'modern' fighting arts however; just to make a point; "Realistic" training in aikido would involve the use of the Japanese sword, tanto and jo/yari that's because those weapons form the basis of the arts origins, not street brawling or reality based self defence.
    You want to **** on bad xingyi or bad aikido or whatnot then fine, I'll be the first in line to admit that you have a bigger chance of finding a Jewish Chinese person in any city than you do have of finding a school that trains properly in that city (or Japanese one in aikido case).
    Thanks, I'll consider myself a Jewish Japanophile then.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  8. velomaster is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2007 2:47pm


     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know how Xing Yi ended up in this thread. Many Xing Yi people do Sanshou/Sanda quite succesfully. The question shoud be (for any TMA): Do you spar? How do you spar? Can I see it? Thet being said most aikido people DO NOT spar(Tomiki being the exception. Some Aikijujitsu schools do. Nothing like Bjj or Judo though.
  9. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 1:41am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by velomaster
    The question shoud be (for any TMA): Do you spar? How do you spar? Can I see it?
    And your comments are based on exactly the contemporary MISCONCEPTIONS of what many "Traditional Martial Arts" including Koryu Bujutsu are.

    Here's a fucking wake-up call, many, many Koryu don't spar (not in the contemporary sense) If that doesn't meet with your expectations/needs or misconceptions, tough fucking titty.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  10. velomaster is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 10:17am


     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And your point is? Or you 've just been playing the devil's advocate.
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