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  1. TEA is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2006 10:31pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: TKD, Relson GJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabster the Bad Elf
    WHY?

    I am confused on this last one. Why would dressing up in fancy pants and bowing to sensei make us train harder regardless of our discipline or lack thereof? The rest of your points I was nodding my head.
    OK, for a lot of people, especially self motivated strong willed individuals, ritual in MA is largely, if not completely, unnecessary. However, even "laid back" more modern schools still have some degree of ritual. Touching gloves before a fight comes to mind. Look at any boxing or MMA match and you'll see tons of ritual involved, its just a different set of rituals. As for becoming more motivated, this is something intrinsic in modern military training, which is in fact where many of the so-called "traditional" Japanese MA rituals are derived from (e.g. lining up in order or rank, bowing [i.e. saluting], wearing standardized uniforms, etc), whose goals are to break down one's previous sense of identity and build it up again as part of your new group. If you are an aggressive self starter that doesn't need to be re-educated, then yeah, the ritual is all a bunch of hooey. However, most people lack self discipline and drive and the rituals create a framework in which this discipline and drive is instilled into them.
  2. TEA is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2006 11:11pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: TKD, Relson GJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabster the Bad Elf
    So touching gloves is not a sign of respect to the person across the floor? It is a ritual, but not something that obligatory? Tell me that I can show up to train with Myushiban Sensei in the Aikihuki Dojohonbu with my stretchy pants and watermellon mouthpiece andI am all ready to go!

    That probably depends a lot on the school and the instructor. Would you expect to be able to show up at Paris Island with your ReaTree cammies and a Rem 700 and be allowed to play with the Marines? When I first went to the Kumano Juku Dojo, I asked Hikizuchi-sensei in my most polite Japanese if I could watch one of his classes. Like I'd said before, I'd had a bad Aikido experience before, but everyone I worke with at the local high school said that this was the place to train MA in town, so I was willing to at least go watch a class. After I'd been watching for about 15 minutes or so, H-sensei sauntered over to me (I'm sure there is a bette word than "suantered" to describe the casual, yet grounded and focused way that H-sensei walked) and asked me if I wanted to train with him. I was wearing an oxford shirt and slacks and pointed out that I was not really dressed to train. He told me that clothing was the least important thing about training and to get up and train with him if I was really interested in studying Aikido. He then proceded to kick my ass. After that, he let me wear whatever I wanted until my first paycheck came in and I could buy a judo gi (the magic pants are only for yudansha).

    All that aside, as I state earlier, part of the idea of the uniform is to break down one's previous sense of self and to create a whole new sense of self based on the training in the dojo. This was directly borrowed by the Japanese from Western military training methodology, along with the other regimented dojo rituals. Prior the the Meiji Ishin, MA practitioners in Japan and Okinawa wore whatever was comfortable to work out in and dojo etiquette was much more like one sees in BJJ schools. In that respect, BJJ is probably more Koryu than a lot of Koryu schools that adopted the Western inspired military regimentation and ritual of the post Meiji Ishin period.
    Last edited by TEA; 12/29/2006 11:25pm at .
  3. GRAB MY WRIST is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2006 12:36am


     Style: Jabs & Cross Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is an exceprt from a poster in Judoforum, who according to his profile is a Judo Sandan with more than 20 years practice in Judo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigyo
    Well, my daddy can whip your daddy, or my dog is tougher, or I can pee farther, or whatever.
    I think contrasting Aikido and Judo can be interesting in terms of application and how the founders modified Jujutsu to suit their goals. When I ask my Aikido friends (somewhat teasingly) why there are so many different schools of Aikido, but still only one Judo one of them said something quite interesting. Ueshiba did not develop formal set of kata like the Kodokan. I am not an authority on Aikido, so I will have to take their word for it. This is especially interesting in that most Aikido is practiced in a very kata-esque manner, though a few schools do incorporate randori. I think Judo and Aikido are headed towards the same place but take different routes to get there.

    The physical goal of both Judo and Aikido is to manipulate your opponents force and balance and to end up with them more or less throwing themselves. However, in contrast to Aikido, Judo throws can also be sucessfully done using basic power and leverage, even if the niceties of kuzushi, tskuri, timing, have not yet been mastered. Judo techniques can be done mechanically at a basic level and still yeild results far beyond what an untrained person can do. Aikido techniques do not appear to be as amenable to being performed sucessfully at a basic level because they are not so "mechanical", they appear to be more totally dependent on proper kuzushi, tskuri, etc., and if you don't quite have it down yet there is no sweeping leg or arm leverage to help you make up for it. There are also Judo techniques like this such as sumi gaeshi and hiza guruma.

    So, presuming (once again from a bit of ignorance) that the Jujutstu roots of Aikido were not all that different than Judo, did Ueshiba deliberatly alter, or simply choose techniques that did not lend themselves to mechanical execution. Was this a concious effort to "force" students to jump straight to performing techniques at a higher level because the basic mechanical level was denied to them? Perhaps this is why high level Aikido can be so wonderful and lower levels can be pretty crappy (in terms of application). Jujutsu was a practical exercise, its goal was to teach students to engage with and kill the enemy (and thus survive themselves). If the techniques were only workable after 5-10 years (at least) of study, there would not be many students left. Thus, it would be good to have techniques that would work on a basic level and allow the student to survive long enough to reach a higher level of performance. I have heard about the concept of ura and omote (outside and inside) in the classic martial arts, the aspects of technique which are immediately obvious, an those that are revealed after some study. Could it be that Ueshiba tried to skip over the "outside" technique in an effort to bring students directly to the higher levels? It is hard to say, Judo still has both (at least more than Aikido does). Most Judo techniques, through their basic mechanics can be sucessfully performed by applying power and speed. This can be a drawback because students seduced by the immediate success of this route may never move beyond it (a possiblity that is made stronger by the desire for immediate success associated with competition). Often students only question this approach (or realize how much they have relied on it) when advancing age starts to steal power and speed.

    So what is better? Kano sensei is supposed to have declared Aikido an "ideal budo" so evidently the final result agreed with his vision. Of course this was after a demonstration by high level Aikidoka who had grasped all the higher level skills. Most of us are no longer called upon to employ our martial arts skills in life or death situations (fortunately) so the long development time associated with being able to sucessfully apply Aikido is not neccessarily such a drawback. However, Judo can yeild practical results in a much shorter time. This is also why Judo techniques have been so appealing to the BJJ and MMA crowds, they can be sucessfully applied at a basic level of understanding, where most Aikido techniques cannot.
    GMW
  4. TEA is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2006 1:04am

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     Style: TKD, Relson GJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    GMW, FWIW, one can muscle through a crappily applied Aikido technique, too. Those in the magic pants tend to frown on such vulgar displays of force, though. :wink: Of course, H-sensei was in his 70s, about 5'2" and 120 lbs, but he could still kick my ass when I was 21, 5'8" and 150 lbs.
    Last edited by TEA; 12/30/2006 1:07am at .
  5. GRAB MY WRIST is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2006 1:20am


     Style: Jabs & Cross Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TEA
    GMW, FWIW, one can muscle through a crappily applied Aikido technique, too. Those in the magic pants tend to frown on such vulgar displays of force, though. :wink: Of course, H-sensei was in his 70s, about 5'2" and 120 lbs, but he could still kick my ass when I was 21, 5'8" and 150 lbs.
    Of course you can. And a good aikido player will not just stand there like a retard and let you muscle in. He/she will give way, yield and reengage with a more suitable technique; more appropriate for the circumstances.

    With my 200lbs pound body weight I could easily bull doze through my aikido sensei... and I have tried before, he always move out of the way and reapply a different technique to control me again.

    TEA, after all Aikido is derived from aiki - JU-jutsu much like JU-do.

    GMW
  6. TEA is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2006 1:45am

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     Style: TKD, Relson GJJ, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GRAB MY WRIST
    Of course you can. And a good aikido player will not just stand there like a retard and let you muscle in. He/she will give way, yield and reengage with a more suitable technique; more appropriate for the circumstances.

    With my 200lbs pound body weight I could easily bull doze through my aikido sensei... and I have tried before, he always move out of the way and reapply a different technique to control me again.

    TEA, after all Aikido is derived from aiki - JU-jutsu much like JU-do.

    GMW
    Sorry I was unclear. I did not mean to imply that muscling through a technique was superior to doing it properly, hence my comment about H-sensei kicking my gaijin ass. Even in GJJ, the guys that do it really well seem to do it with very little effort or strain. I was referring more specifically to the part in the quote that you posted that said that it was easier to muscle through techniques in judo than in aikido. That said, in a panic situation where one may be impaired by the elements and/or drink, if one already had the technique down, one can muscle throuh it when one flubs it because of said impairment.
  7. TEA is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2006 2:03am

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     Style: TKD, Relson GJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabster the Bad Elf
    So what you are saying is that arts post Meiji incorporated a singular uniform and that has carried over to the current pattern of westerners wearing the clothes of a foreign country. That somehow creates discipline and a sense of singularity for practitioners in the west. As if I put on some clown outfit, and we all put on a clown outfit, and thus we wear the clown uniform, we become more disciplined!

    I see what you are saying. I do get a better idea at least of the point you are making. I just will shake my head I guess cause it seems like the most absurd notion that if we all wear Nigerian goatskin leggings that we all become some central African warrior.
    Probably correct, but just don't tell that to a Marine when he's in his dress blues.
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2006 2:27am

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     Style: TKD, Relson GJJ, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Its also interesting to note that the prison system first adopted uniforms with the same basic concept of breaking down a convict's indiividuality and remolding him in the shape of the penitary society. This, of course, way predates Kano and Funakoshi, the first who invented most of the uniform/etiquette of modern Japanese budo, and the latter who popularized it as a part of the "traditional" Japanese bushido that underlay the true heart of the Japanese spirit (gag, gag, cough, cough).
  9. vigilus is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2006 4:19am


     Style: Yoshinkan Aikido, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey Dave,

    What really grips your **** about Aikido and or its practitioners ?

    Lets not bring up hakama, its a part of the uniform, what I'm interested in is the core gripes people have, if you post sincerely I'll do my best to answer those gripes based upon my own experiences.
    I don't really think anything bugs me about Aikido or their practitioners.
    I haven't been exposed to many other styles of Aikido or people from different schools and the ones I have been military or ex-military a lot of the time. I'm not sure if this makes a difference.

    I don't see what the problem with the hakama is. I think they look cool, maybe I'll have a change of opinion when I actually wear one? If it's a part of the tradition or uniform then it's a part of it. If you're from a highland regiment you wear a kilt, even if your not scottish. Seems like one of the biggest slams against Aikido is wearing a Hakama?

    As for everyone trashing Katas, I think there is a time or place for them
    One example given to me was If your rifle jams you perform a kata. Look to the bolt see what position it's in, if it's fully to the rear then your out of ammo, replace the mag. Fully forward and the bolt didn't properly pick up a round bla bla.
    Not sure why people think Kata's are the end of the world. Of course MA wise if someone sticks to only katas and doesn't fight well theres problems with that. Thats been covered a million times. Dead horse.

    All In all I don't know enough about Aikido to really come up with a decent argument against it, aside of course whats been pointed out time and time again. I like it. The people are awesome, I've used it successfully in a fight and at work.
    I'm willing to bet a few people here spout off about martial arts, what works and what doesn't etc.. having never been in a real fight. (Some on the other hand of course)

    While studying Aikido I try and listen to other peoples justified and unjustified shortcommings with Aikido (Which is why I hang around at bullshido) and work at changing it to make mine better. I deffinatly think there is something to be said for mixing martial arts.
    You don't bring only one gun to a battle and you don't bring only one golf club when you're golfing is how I see it.

    As for ettiquette and "ritual" I don't know.
    When you meet someone you shake their hand. Ritual.
    When you're in someones car you ask them before you light up a cigarette. Ettiquette.
    You take dirty shoes off before going in someones house.
    Your about to train with someone you shake hands bow or touch gloves, why is a sign of respect for another human a bad thing? Too much of it yes but common sense is the key.

    With regard to Steven Seagal being as ***** I don't know that either. He could kick my ass. I'm guessing he could hold his own against quite a few people in here, fat version or skinny.
    Is condeming a martial art because someone who uses that MA got defeated smart? Not at all, thats silly.
    Last edited by vigilus; 12/30/2006 7:30am at .
  10. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2006 10:13am

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll respond in detail to people's questions later however;
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabster the Bad Elf
    More than anything else, this thread is making me think about what martial arts will look like in 60+ years and then 100+ years. The evolution will be absolutely mind boggling.
    As a student of both koryu and gendai budo, I’ve spent some time contemplating this very subject.

    "evolution" this could be a subjective word because, in terms of this thread, aikido has developed in the last 60 years since its introduction to the western world however; depending upon who you talk too aikido has either "developed" during this time or, been subjected to a "devolutionary" process resulting from over indulgence in individual ideological/philosophical interpretation of the founder's words/teachings/beliefs and, strayed from a martial discipline. The fact is, both are true.

    The reason why this has happened is quite simple. Firstly Aikido is a gendai system with little or no formal kata dictating the methodology of its hand art, this allows anyone to inject their own personal interpretation (good or bad) even before they've spent any real time learning; Secondly, although being a modern art, aikido retains almost all of the old school methodologies which serve as its primary influences, those training methods and reasoning’s just don't work in the dynamics of modern conflict, thus, we have a "modern discipline" which doesn't ultimately function as a "modern fighting art"; Thirdly, aikido (despite being modern) has no real contemporary way of pressure testing, this isn't because its been dropped or avoided, its because there never has been - just like a koryu art.

    Remembering of course that those koryu bujutsu which exist today, exist because they were proven to work on the field of battle, those systems which were strategically/technically unsound died (as did their exponents), that's the pressure testing which existed in feudal times, that and duels most of which ended in "aiuchi" mutual death.

    I've long believed that aikido has a very bad case of identity crisis. New yet old.

    In contrast; as a student of kendo and koryu MSR iaido, both of which have very formal kata but, there's little room for personal interpretation yet both have strong philosophical attachments however; neither art is seen as overly 'spiritual' or 'religious' but, any art associated with the Japanese sword (including aikido) has extremely deep attachment to the very core of Japanese society and its reigi (forms of etiquette)
    Last edited by Rock Ape; 12/30/2006 10:18am at .
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