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  1. botunga is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2006 7:31pm


     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca
    Unfortunately, these schools have given Bok Fu Do a bad name and my primary purpose is to keep facts about the system and its founder straight whilst the rest of you systematically take apart these other schools. I have no intentions of standing in the way of that.
    Well, as it is honest work, and GM Lee is an honest man, perhaps some baksheesh is in order here, no? Royalties could be paid on performance....say a percentage for each bad school student that enrolls in the good school. Or something like that. :-)
  2. Bokfutopher is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2006 10:12pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca
    BTW, I'm a student and an instructor at East - West and GM Richard Lee is my teacher. I know what happened between the two but it's not my place to tell that story, so I will refrain. All I can say is that I would suspect everything Ron Lee had to say about Bok Fu, who named it and whatever else he cared to say. If you refer to the article I posted a link to, you might find some answers. There is also a page about GM Lee, which may provide you with further information. It wasn't until '72 that Bok Fu even came into existence. Prior to that, the BBs he developed were learning Tracy Kenpo.

    We get transfers from other schools all the time, including West Wind and East Wind. Yes, you could call what they learned Bok Fu, because the techniques are basically the same but the way they were taught and the level of detail provided to the students was not exactly up to par with what we do. Unfortunately, these schools have given Bok Fu Do a bad name and my primary purpose is to keep facts about the system and its founder straight whilst the rest of you systematically take apart these other schools. I have no intentions of standing in the way of that.
    I am not trying to bash any school, per say. My purpose is actually to bring out the truth of what they do. I dont agree with how and what West Wind has become. I am just trying to compare and contrast what they were to what they are now. They used to be pretty good, now they suck. We had some transferes from East West as well, back when I worked at the fairfield school. The one place we never had transferes from was Tracys though.

    I totally respect your loyalties to your school and teacher. That is an admirable trait. I am sure you would not be studying there if you did not trust him. I dont know the man so I cant say who is telling the truth. I can make the assumption that Richard Lee is probably a good teacher from your writing and your loyalty to him. But I know from my experiences that Ron Lee was good teacher and very knowledgable as well. Just because someone writes something on a website does not mean it is a fact. Ron Lee showed his own evidence to the contrary of what Richard Lee now says. I believe the only two that knows exactly, for an absolute fact what happened, is those two men. They can both say the opposite of each other from here to eternity, with out any body, but them, knowing the truth. I can tell you this, after dealing with West Wind in its later days, I am suspect to what any body says. I learned that they can tell you anything, but it dont mean it is true.

    Your school does look like a good system, from what I have seen on the website, and I might at some point in my life check it out for myself.

  3. Bokfutopher is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2006 10:32pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabster the Bad Elf
    I did hear about the kids teaching classes. I heard the ripping off part. I grew up in Napa, and went to high school there. Never met anyone who was a badass from West Winds - sorry. Later on when I opened my own school I ran into a few Ex-West Winds people who had left the organization and were basically under Tracy. They really were good at their tricks and forms, but never saw them get in and brawl. Maybe they were good fighters, but never met any that were bullies.
    We used to do demonstration, periodicaly, at the highschools were there were West Wind schools located. To try and bring in more business and to show what we had to offer. They did a couple of demonstrations at Napa, but Napa highschool stopped West Wind from ever coming back because of this problem they had with the students/instructors. I dont know if it was a big thing that happened all the time or a couple of isolated incidents. I dont even know if they won the fights they got into, or if they just tried being bullies and ended up starting a fight that they lost. I do know that the highschool did not like it and the word spread to the parents. I will say this a lot of parents yanked their kids out of West Wind due to this. Some even left with out ending their contracts. Basically waking away from the money they had spent. Their main concern was to get their children away from the bad teachings of West Wind. The word got out about all of this and the other problems they had and ended up shutting them down. Bad news spreads like wild fire. West Wind could not do enough good at that point to come back from the blemish that they had created.
  4. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/31/2006 2:18pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by botunga
    Well, as it is honest work, and GM Lee is an honest man, perhaps some baksheesh is in order here, no? Royalties could be paid on performance....say a percentage for each bad school student that enrolls in the good school. Or something like that. :-)
    Hmm, I see a new sidejob here...
  5. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/31/2006 2:21pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bokfutopher
    We used to do demonstration, periodicaly, at the highschools were there were West Wind schools located. To try and bring in more business and to show what we had to offer. They did a couple of demonstrations at Napa, but Napa highschool stopped West Wind from ever coming back because of this problem they had with the students/instructors. I dont know if it was a big thing that happened all the time or a couple of isolated incidents. I dont even know if they won the fights they got into, or if they just tried being bullies and ended up starting a fight that they lost. I do know that the highschool did not like it and the word spread to the parents. I will say this a lot of parents yanked their kids out of West Wind due to this. Some even left with out ending their contracts. Basically waking away from the money they had spent. Their main concern was to get their children away from the bad teachings of West Wind. The word got out about all of this and the other problems they had and ended up shutting them down. Bad news spreads like wild fire. West Wind could not do enough good at that point to come back from the blemish that they had created.
    When did all this happen? I graduated from Napa High many years ago. I think that this was probably after that, though.
  6. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Y SO SRIUS?

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    Posted On:
    12/31/2006 2:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca
    Unfortunately, these schools have given Bok Fu Do a bad name

    Actually...whoever named it something gay like Bok Fu Do....gave it a bad name.
  7. Gumby is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/31/2006 5:18pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bokfutopher
    I believe that every system of Martial Arts is good in its own aspects. I do not believe that any one system is better than another. I do believe that the system is what you make of it. I do believe that one martial artist can be better than another, not because of the type of system they belong to, but rather their level of talent, amount of practise and effort they put into learning and becoming better, and if he has the killer instinct it takes to win. Some are just better fighters just like some are better runners or better singers. It does not matter what school you go to for singing lessons, they can only improve you to what your abilities will allow. My point is you cant turn everyone into a Bruce Lee or Jet Li no matter what system you study.]

    Im a late comer to this thread, but hopefully I can explain what the rest of the forum is trying to flame you for.

    1: Every martial art is good in its own aspects

    Yes, you are absolutely correct in this statement, however when you further elaborate on the statement you have to ask: each martial art is good compared to what? It seriously depends on what you're comparing each style to. Its easy to compare a striking style to a grappling style, because each style doesnt cover what the other style does. Once we start comparing styles that are more similar in their approach to fighting (i.e. striking vs striking, grappling vs grappling, etc) this is where it start to get complicated. Ultimately, under practical observations, one style is going to prove to be superior to the other even though in theory every style of martial art has a valid approach to combat. Such is the way of life- theres going to be a winner and theres going to be a loser- both can not win.

    Now, in respect to the grappling styles vs the striking styles, its very clear that grappling styles have a great advantage over striking styles when trained in isolation. We walk on two feet, and due to the aggression and strength of a fight, its very common for people to get overwhelmed and thrown to the ground. The ability to remain on your feet in a fight is in direct correlation to your grappling ability, not your striking ability. The fact that striking styles are so lacking in grappling expertise already puts them at a grave disadvantage when fighting against someone else who knows so much as a basic takedown. When fighters begin to cross train, then the outcome of a fight relies more on the individuals talent and determination moreso than skill, because all fighters are knowledgable in all aspects of a fight. All styles can not make the same quality of fighters because of their obvious differences- thats why we have styles and thats what it means to be a "jiu jitsu" fighter, or a "kickboxer."

    When we start to compare styles, lets compare something like muay thai to TKD. I'll try to avoid using just BJJ examples to try to keep this unbiased. TKD is much much more popular in the US, with perhaps 10x as many practitioners (maybe more) than muay thai. Yet, in full contact kickboxing competitions and in mixed martial arts competitions, there are far more successfull fighters with a base style in muay thai than there are those with a base style in TKD- thats got to pick your brain just a little bit. Choosing which style you prefer to train in makes all the difference in the world. "Live and let live" does not apply and cant apply to something like martial arts where things are constantly empirically tested- its a physical activity that can be scientifically measured- its not like philosophy.

    How else could you explain someone like Royce Gracie, who's 175lbs defeating all such opponents 15 years ago? Hes not particularly strong, not very fast, and not an athletic person. He relied solely on his jiu jitsu technique and was able to defeat people who were heavier, stronger, faster, and more athletic than he was and he did it because, at the time, his style and technique were much more superior.
  8. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/31/2006 5:58pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Actually...whoever named it something gay like Bok Fu Do....gave it a bad name.
    That would be the Chinese...

    In 1972, Lee began an around the world mission to study and research the various fighting systems of martial arts. He began his travels in the Republic of China, where some of the most respected and well-known Kuoshu (Kung-Fu) Grandmasters and Masters resided. Lee’s travel and research efforts were immediately featured in popular magazines in the Republic of China. An article in New Martial Hero Magazine with popular movie star, Bruce Lee, on the cover labeled the aforementioned Lee a world traveling scholar and described Lee’s sincere wish to experience the real face of Eastern Kung-Fu culture. Lee's style was described by the Chinese as "White Tiger Fist" which translates literally to Bok-Fu-Kenpo.
  9. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/31/2006 6:39pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm so goddamn sick of the "every art is a unique and beautiful snowflake" bullshit.
  10. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Y SO SRIUS?

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    Posted On:
    12/31/2006 6:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    I'm so goddamn sick of the "every art is a unique and beautiful snowflake" bullshit.

    Well Virginia....there really ISNT a Santa Claus.
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