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  1. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    2/22/2007 6:39pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As an example, if a grappler is confronted by an attacker intent on doing major, if not lethal damage, is he going to lock out a joint to destruction, or is he expecting the bad guy to tap out? If it's the former, how do you train for that?
    Bad analogy - because the striker has to change targets (striking the stomach instead of the groin or the foreheard instead of the eyes), he actually has to change targets. A grappler just has to keep doing what he's been doing, just a little bit moreso. Also, most grapplers train with partners who are trying to tap or nap them, while most 'lethal' strike training is done with a moderately to fully compliant partner. And I say that as a ke?po 3rd dan who spent a lot of time 'practicing' those throat strikes and eye gouges.

    Building on your example, I have a friend who is a firefighter in south Florida - his department did a full fire simulation. They took a house that the city had seized and burned it to the ground to expose everyone to what a fully engulfed house fire can do. In MA terms, I'd call that as close to a 'real' fight as you can get, training-wise. That said, I think it's a bad example - I don't know too much about fire-fighting, but I do know that all the fire-fighters I've worked with are big believers in getting a scene under control before they rush in for any reason. You can't apply that principle to a fight.

    I know what you're saying, and I agree that drilling a specific thing can be important (especially when I'm learning basics as an ultra-newb in an MMA club!), but I don't think it's a good example.
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  2. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    2/22/2007 6:41pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've never done the drill you talk about. I like it though. I'm going to give it some thought and see if I can figure out a good way to do it.
    I've never really seen that one done either, but I think it's a good way to test the application of a technique to someone who knows the technique but isn't complying with it.

    Ibuprofen - a friend for all seasons!
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  3. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/22/2007 8:19pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OnceLost
    Bad analogy - because the striker has to change targets (striking the stomach instead of the groin or the foreheard instead of the eyes), he actually has to change targets. A grappler just has to keep doing what he's been doing, just a little bit moreso. Also, most grapplers train with partners who are trying to tap or nap them, while most 'lethal' strike training is done with a moderately to fully compliant partner. And I say that as a ke?po 3rd dan who spent a lot of time 'practicing' those throat strikes and eye gouges.

    Building on your example, I have a friend who is a firefighter in south Florida - his department did a full fire simulation. They took a house that the city had seized and burned it to the ground to expose everyone to what a fully engulfed house fire can do. In MA terms, I'd call that as close to a 'real' fight as you can get, training-wise. That said, I think it's a bad example - I don't know too much about fire-fighting, but I do know that all the fire-fighters I've worked with are big believers in getting a scene under control before they rush in for any reason. You can't apply that principle to a fight.

    I know what you're saying, and I agree that drilling a specific thing can be important (especially when I'm learning basics as an ultra-newb in an MMA club!), but I don't think it's a good example.
    The grappling analogy isn't the best but it's the first one I came up with. I agree with the problem of changing targets.

    I've done live fire training and agree it's the closest to getting into a real fight. That said, it is still done in a strictly regulated environment. Preparing a structure for interior live fire training takes quite a bit of time. Compare it to getting into the ring where there are rules to the fight. Still a very valuable training tool, even if it's not totally "real world". It is also the exception, rather than the rule. The vast amount of training is done in nonfire, static settings.

    On a fire response, the first in officer sizes up the situation, gives orders and then goes in. That is the beginning of controlling the situation. In the case of a rescue, that prep time becomes a matter of seconds and is a "real fight". One that few firefighters will have to face in their careers but one that is trained for at length in static situations. I've been in the fire service much longer than I've been in ma, so I'm comfortable with the analogy.

    3rd Dan in which kenpo system? Do you feel that it was comprehensive in scope, or was it lacking in certain areas? One thing we're working on is incorporating more ground fighting applications. It's an area that I think is lacking in kenpo in general.
  4. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 8:49am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's a rather misnamed 'shaolin' kenpo with a lineage I don't bother to get into - it was good for what I wanted at the time, but I wanted something with less structure (one-step techniques with compliant attackers) and forms. I'm definitely over forms. The ground game was decent at the school for what I used it for (in an LEO capacity), but grappling is the main reason I switched to an MMA club. That, a more informal environment, and techniques that I can pressure test every time I train.
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  5. sct is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 5:18pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bokfutopher View Post
    Dude stay away from that place, they are a joke now. The funny silk gi was probably his pajamas. This is just another example of them turning into a facade, they paint this picture of what they are, but once you get into their system it is not what they claim. A bunch of want to be "War Gods". I am serious, they actually told us instructors that our students should look at us with reverence, like we were "War Gods". The place is not what it used to be.
    I realize this is an old thread but can't help jump in here:
    @Bokfutopher: West Wind is not a joke "now" -- they always have been. It sounds like nothing has changed. I started there in 1984 when Scott Flint was brand new in the Alameda location. He started out as my first teacher but then I got switched from instructor to instructor regularly. It was annoying and disruptive to my progress.

    Any way, what I really want to say is that while I was attending the Alameda location I was repeatedly harrassed by an instructor there... and Flint was aware of it (cuz he witnessed several occurrences) and did nothing. I was only 10 years old & was scared to report it (to who?).

    The overall atmosphere was as you describe: The instructors wanted you to treat them as if they were superior to all. I understand the need for "respect" & "discipline" but what they did to me was overboard. Their tactics were aggressive & unnecessary. Several incidents occurred in my "private lesson" when the doors were closed (private rooms). Once, when I was only an orange belt, the instructor entered the room yelling at me. I thought he was jokingly trying to pump me up (challenge me / motivate me). But his words were anything but encouraging. He surprisingly challenged me to a sparring match which was completely inappropriate at my belt. (Back then @West Wind you didn't engage in sparring until the middle of your purple belt -- I was only orange!). So I was confused & thought he was kidding somehow -- when he charged me I didn't dare fight back making contact but instead acted out the appropriate techniques; but he did make contact, purposely, striking me and throwing me to the ground from which I suffered a minor injury.

    Shortly after that incident, he yelled at me complaining I didn't have what it takes and should reconsider continuing my lessons. (???!!!) He then made me spend my entire 30-minute private lesson on my knees facing the wall (wasting my family's time & money). Needless to say, he left me there alone until it was time to go. In yet another private lesson, the same instructor was "teaching" me a technique & was acting strangely (you know when you get the "weirdness" vibe). We were doing that technique when someone grabs you from behind & you take a step to the side and hit the attacker in the groin. Of course when learning techniques for white & orange belts you never made actual contact -- you only acted out the movements with intensity; but this time the (male) instructor decided otherwise and took my balled up fist and dug it into his groin (I'm female & was 12 yrs old by then). My hand clearly touched his penis and I was sooo grossed out that I felt sick to my stomach. This was no accident; I quickly pulled my hand away & each trial-run of the technique he would grab my fist and dig it into his groin. (And by "digging it in" I mean he would force my fist onto his groin and with his own hand over mine, would make a slow circular motion.)

    Not long after that incident I quit... But not after enduring repeated humiliating and intimidating events with this same instructor -- many of those events occurring now in FRONT of other students (adults & children) who would later (secretly) whisper to me, "What an a$$hole!" In one of those incidents I remember making my way around the mat. Whenever you passed an instructor you had to bow to him/her. So I waited for the instructor to turn my way so I could bow before passing him and, almost as if on purpose (???), he wouldn't turn (making me wait). I finally made my way around and was almost to the door when I felt myself being thrown to the ground, onto the thinly carpeted concrete. He knocked the air out of me, and instead of helping me he yells at me in front of the entire class, "When you pass an instructor YOU BOW!!!!" I finally got up stunned and embarrassed, while students (from the class that were on the mat) just looked at me -- some in pity and others in shock -- but said nothing.

    Any way... now that I've "vented"... =) I just want to say to PLEASE be careful when sending your children to Bullshido wanna-be dojos. As an adult, I finally shared with my parents my experiences there. Obviously they were outraged... They entrusted their daughter to an institution that was PAID (lots of money) to teach me the art of self-defense and (ironically) instead they acted as the bullies. ...I guess that's ONE WAY of learning! (???!!!) I showed up at West Wind in Alameda several years later to find Flint and the a$$hole instructor (I felt emotionally stronger and capable of handling the confrontation) but learned that Flint had been promoted to some higher position and wasn't working from that location anymore (was studying abroad or some B.S. I was told); and learned from the person at the front counter that the a$$hole instructor had left (or was fired?) for becoming involved with a student. (!!!) He gave me no details and I had no way to verify if this was true.

    Regardless, I attended many tournaments and events while I was a student there at West Wind and, therefore, know first-hand that it's not a healthy environment. STAY AWAY! Their karate is joke & their philosophy and atmosphere is toxic. And especially: keep your kids out of this place! ...at least as an adult you feel somewhat confident in confronting other adults' inappropriate behavior and can even manage to kick an instructor in the nuts (blackbelt or not!) if they're acting stupid like mine was & deserves it. But a child likely won't. So look elsewhere for your martial arts needs... West Wind is not deserving of your money or time.
  6. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 5:39pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow, that’s just awful. It’s also the kind of thing that will put a person off martial arts forever, and it’s shameful that an instructor would be the one to do it.
  7. Disastorm is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 6:37pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow this stuff is rediculous, especially the stuff sct posted. How are they not shut down yet, it sounds like some of the things they do wouldn't even be legal? I can't believe they havn't been sued left and right.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 6:42pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You have to look at the time frame. In the 80's child abuse, spousal abuse, and molestation was just coming to the forefront. People were keeping all of this behind closed doors.
  9. ADM is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 7:56pm


     Style: Kyokushin Karate / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow ... that's a fairly terrible story. Also I hate bullies, with a passion. Note not Bullshido term of bully, but ACTUAl bullies.
  10. sct is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/30/2010 12:43pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thx for your replies. Just to clarify: I turned out just FINE! It made me stronger. And, thankfully, I still love martial arts!!! The experience at West Wind hurt & angered me at the time for obvious reasons... even made me feel "helpless" for a minute... But I think the feelings of "helplessness" fueled my desire to want to learn to defend myself more than ever!

    4 or 5 years after leaving West Wind I enrolled at a place in Hayward called US Karate Institute & trained w/Joe Olivarez. Great guy! He also trained my cousins in karate for a few yrs. He would often pull me to the side after class to teach me defense techniques "for females". I remember he would show me how I could use common items in my purse for defense purposes. =) Overall, I could just tell he cared about his students.

    After that I trained w/a friend privately (mostly for conditioning) who introduced me to muay thai. This sparked an interest in boxing; so I went to Amsterdam Boxing in Oakland. I took the kickboxing class w/Alfredo. Excellent workout! And I got the honor of training w/ Ercivan for a few classes... he's very professional & very down to earth. I regret having to stop my training there & hope to go back one day. (I stopped only because I had wrist surgery.)

    I'm now looking into possibly starting AIKIDO. Do U guys have any first-hand experience w/this style? I know very little about it except that, I think, defensive training involves redirecting the opponent's kinetic energy in a circular fashion (e.g. pulling to the ground instead of blocking). This catches my attention because I don't have a lot of strength (esp after my surgery) so it seems like it could be an effective self defense style for me.

    Any THOUGHTS? (Any RECOMMENDATIONS on a good Aikido dojo?)
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