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  1. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 5:28pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuck Chorris
    Thank you for the link. I have seen it before.

    As you stated, there is not a connection between what you are doing and what the other schools are doing. Other than some familial connection that your school shares with the others there, in your opinion, is no longer a business relationship between the different factions.

    It is unfortunate that they all get lumped in together. It does happen no matter what the organization/name. This would all get sorted out a lot better if it was okay to just take a bunch of your students and go to the neighboring town to put a woop down on the jackass school that is defaming your school's reputation.

    Side question: when did they start issuing Japanese rank in China? 8th degree GM???
    That's a good question. I'm not sure when they started issuing rank. What I do know is that it took a number of years before the recognition was made. The reason it was two ranks below the one he holds in this country had to do with him only being in his sixties. I can look into it and get back to you.

    As for opening a can of whoop-ass, I've heard a number of stories of how that was how things would have been handled back in the day. There's would be no ambiguity with the outcome, would there?
  2. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 6:45pm

    hall of famestaff
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So what is your School's fee structure for classes?
  3. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 6:25pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
    So what is your School's fee structure for classes?
    It varies some with the length of the membership but figure about $100 a month with an unlimited number of classes that can be taken.
  4. new2bjj is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 8:45pm


     Style: TKD, MT, KEMPO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
    Do you know where we could obtain a copy of said article :)
    Sam, That was in the mid 70's- it was either Black Belt or Karate Illustrated magazine. I doubt they would even have a copy, and I have long since, in a cathertic moment, discarded them.
  5. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/22/2007 1:42am


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuck Chorris
    Side question: when did they start issuing Japanese rank in China? 8th degree GM???
    Rank is given in China, at least in the ROC. I'm not sure how long though. His 8th degree black sash is from the International Chinese Kuoshu Federation which is controlled by the Taiwanese military. The President and Vice President hold the rank of General. It's based not just on ability (although that is a big part of it) but also on an individuals contribution to CMA, length of time in MA, age, and several other attributes.
  6. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/22/2007 12:50pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuck Chorris
    The reason I ask is because the dan system is a Japanese thing. And usually, if not in all cases, the Chinese will not see the Japanese way as anything but inferior.

    Is your instructor teach now, pretty much what he taught 15-25 years ago?
    There've been a number of modifications over the years, both in techniques and in belt requirements. The thing that I've noticed the most about transfers from other schools that teach Bok Fu is that they've been taught the movement but haven't been taught why and what they're actually doing. I.e., "the elbow through the ribs brings the head down which allows you to strike the back of the neck at this angle", etc. It's kind of like asking someone who has just done a marvelous performance of a chinese form what the movements within the form mean and getting "I don't know, I was just taught the pattern" in response. This isn't across the board but I've heard it enough.

    As for your comment in another post about being taught "forms and dead pattern style self defense drills" is okay, if that's what you like, I do have a response. That is what we teach here but regardless of the system, that certainly can't be all that is taught. If the underlying concepts that are being taught in the form, or pattern are not extracted, explained and reinforced, then I think the student is being done a disservice. If someone has a punch thrown at them and thinks "gee, I'll do Flashing Wings", they're toast because by the time that thought goes through their head, they've already been hit. The goal of the system, even though it's taught primarily through forms and SD techniques is to get the student past that point so that in an attack situation, they just react. A student has to be taught to adapt to the situation and be trained well enough that they don't have to rely on a set technique. I think that should be the goal of all martial arts, regardless of what path is taken to get to that point.
  7. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/22/2007 2:47pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuck Chorris
    If this is the case then he is basically teaching Tracy Kempo with a few modifications.

    I understand the reasoning behind practicing dead patterns. And the argument that you present is not new here on bullshido. When it gets right down to it, you are training a reaction against a non-resisting opponent. Your reactions will flow as if the opponent is non-resisting as well. "Play like you practice" is the old term I was taught. Practice against resistance and you will never get into some fantasyland where a technique that works 1% of the time is being taught. Therefore there is no time wasted on inefficient techniques that work only in some controlled environment...and then all of your training is for the sole purpose of kicking someone's ass as opposed to just looking like you can kick someone's ass.

    You run up against some drunko at the bar, then sure, you'd probably be Mr. Badass KungFu. You step on someone's toes who knows what the **** they are doing and you are in a different world altogether. As far as I am concerned, you can throw that dead pattern **** right out the door. Why throw it out? Because when you fight someone you aren't going to use your dead pattern stuff anyways. You are going to use the most simple method of ass kicking that comes to you at that moment.

    Lots of good schools down there in the Bay Area. If Dead Patterns and looking like you can kick ass is your thing, more power to ya.
    It's based on Tracy Kenpo with a lot of modifications. Once you reach Brown Belt, it has very little to do with Tracy Kenpo and once you reach BB, it has nothing to do with it. There are 10 degrees of BB in our system. It's at Brown Belt that we veer off drastically from other Bok Fo schools, in that most the techniques were created/modified after the founders of those schools left East-West. Regardless of the system, or style, it baffles me that many end once you reach your BB.

    As for your comments regarding teaching techniques with set responses and no resistance, that would be true if that's all we taught. Teaching the technique is only the beginning. However, we DO have students do techniques against each other with resistance. Once you're at the higher belts levels, free form becomes a much bigger part of the curriculum. Again, the whole goal is to get the student to the point where they know what they're doing, and not just in a staged, choreographed setting. Not everybody reacts the same way to the same technique and that's where it's deadly important that the student understands that and knows how to adapt.

    On a side note, we have done the set techniques against each other with resistance and, properly executed, they do work. Where modifications have been made is where it was felt that they wouldn't work. It would be pointless to teach them, otherwise. Where the distinction has to be made is that although the technique would work, that's not the way you would necessarily respond to an attack. That's where it's important that the concepts within the technique be extracted and taught in addition to the set pattern. Although I know a couple of hundred different set techniques, if I can't take out an attacker with one, or two moves, then I haven't been paying attention and haven't learned a damned thing. If I come up against somebody who does know what they're doing, then I'm glad I know how to extend my response beyond those one, or two moves if necessary. In other words, we pretty much agree on what needs to be taught for someone to be able to take care of themselves. Where we disagree is how to get to that point. To each his own. That's why we teach a cross section of material to perspective students. If they like what we teach and how we teach it, great. If they feel as you do, that's fine too. There are plenty of fine MA schools out there with a number of different teaching methods. To me, quality and comprehensiveness is much more important than a specific method to achieve to overall goals.

    Thank you for the intelligent, well thought out discusson.

    jd
  8. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    2/22/2007 4:48pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On a side note, we have done the set techniques against each other with resistance and, properly executed, they do work.
    How much resistance?
    Our of curiosity, have you ever tested the technique by taking two people, giving them both a technique to do (without the other knowing about it), and told them to try to perform that technique against the other person?
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  9. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/22/2007 6:29pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuck Chorris
    My question follows the same lines as Oncelost, but a slightly different angle. If you have 100% resistance training, then how is it you practice a lot of the techniques? If you are talking about eye pokes, raking the faces, throat chops etc...you lose students that way no? How do you go about approaching your live methods.


    Insulting. I do not hold hands with intellegent and well though out discussion. I tend to meander like a water buffalo chewing on the grass that is the ramblings on this forum. I shall move on to greener pastures soon enough.
    Ha ha! My apologies for offending your delicate sensibilities.

    I won't deny that it's pretty much impossible to practice some things at full resistance and full speed. We would all look like Igor after a bad night in a mosh pit. In those situations during resistance training, the strikes need to go to nonlethal targets, i.e., instead of driving my knee into your groin, I'm going to put it into your stomach, etc. It's also just as important to know how to take a shot, just as well as it is to give one. To work on targeting certain areas areas, the speed is slowed down, or the technique is done at full speed and the strike is pulled, i.e, I'll stop just short of shoving my fingers deep into your eye sockets. This inability to 100% train with full resistance and full speed isn't unique to us, though. As an example, if a grappler is confronted by an attacker intent on doing major, if not lethal damage, is he going to lock out a joint to destruction, or is he expecting the bad guy to tap out? If it's the former, how do you train for that?

    I'll leave you with an analogy from outside ma. I'm a Captain in the fire service. When it's time to train for a structure fire, we don't go light somebodies house on fire. We go to a drill tower, a scenario is played out and we go through our Standard Operating Procedures to deal with the situation and to train on our techniques for that particular evolution. Although the scenarios are varied, it's the same building, there's no fire and little risk. The setting is static. When we do respond to a real fire, the structure is nothing like the tower we trained in. All buildings are different, all fires are different, all situations are different. Yet our training at the tower acting out the various scenarios allows us to do our job quite well. Even though the way the emergency is handled is decided on the spur of the moment based on the particular situation, it's the underlying principles that we have learned by drilling in a controlled environment that allow us to handle the situation calmly and competently.
  10. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/22/2007 6:38pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OnceLost
    How much resistance?
    Our of curiosity, have you ever tested the technique by taking two people, giving them both a technique to do (without the other knowing about it), and told them to try to perform that technique against the other person?
    The amount of the resistance pretty much depends on the level of ability of the student. I'm not going to have two orange belts use full resistance on each other during a technique. One or both would end up in the hospital. In that situation, I'd probably have them do the technique on me so that they can learn how to hit their target and see what it's like to have some resistance to what they're tying to get accomplished. The only one who can potentially get damaged in that situation is me. The higher the skill level, the better the students are at executing, defending against, and going with the technique. I've been dummying for some of our BBs working on grappling techniques the last couple of weeks with resistance. I've spent a lot of time flying through the air and being slammed to the mat. I didn't quite get to the "tuck and roll" a couple of times and paid the price. I now premedicate with Ibuprofen before we get started.

    I've never done the drill you talk about. I like it though. I'm going to give it some thought and see if I can figure out a good way to do it.
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