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  1. sambosteve is offline
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    Stillness is death

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2006 1:50am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    EDIT: Re. Spiridonov, SAMBO, SAMOZ and modern Systema; my impression was that Spiridonov was originally working under the SAMOZ banner and returned to that method, perhaps refining it as a specialty, after the development of SAMBO; partly because he was getting older and his various ailments and injuries were getting worse. Either way, during the mid-latter 1900s SAMOZ seems to have become associated with espionage, saboteur training and executive security, while SAMBO became more associated with H2H training for regular troops.
    Yes, I have heard similar things. I suspect that this was, in part, due to Spiridonov's and Oshchepkov's dislike for each other. I have also heard that Spiridonov pulled some strings to get Oshchepkov arrested, and eventually killed (most people don't buy the heart attack story).
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2006 2:04am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sambosteve
    Yes, I have heard similar things. I suspect that this was, in part, due to Spiridonov's and Oshchepkov's dislike for each other. I have also heard that Spiridonov pulled some strings to get Oshchepkov arrested, and eventually killed (most people don't buy the heart attack story).
    Yeah, his "heart attack" seems pretty damned convenient ... I hadn't heard the rumor that Spiridonov was involved, though. As far as I could determine, Oshchepkov became politically "inconvenient" when he refused to disavow the Japanese influence on the new Russian H2H systems, after which Kharlampfiev (who seems to have been a better "party man") was written in to the official history as the founder of SAMBO.

    With all this skullduggery, I'm not surprized that Ryabko Systema wants to distance itself from Communism, but I wish they'd stop talking about ancient Russian knights and Cossack warriors. The real history is messy but much more interesting.
  3. NexNoxNoctus is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2006 2:12am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Tracy Style Chinese Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    this forum is already at the top so I'm using it to test, instead of testing in my own message so as to seem like I'm "bump"ing it. Test.
  4. dragoon3428 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2006 4:17am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shaolin-Do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Best thread I've read yet... and I agree that there are shades of grey.
  5. sambosteve is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2006 1:44pm

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     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, his "heart attack" seems pretty damned convenient ... I hadn't heard the rumor that Spiridonov was involved, though. As far as I could determine, Oshchepkov became politically "inconvenient" when he refused to disavow the Japanese influence on the new Russian H2H systems, after which Kharlampfiev (who seems to have been a better "party man") was written in to the official history as the founder of SAMBO.

    With all this skullduggery, I'm not surprized that Ryabko Systema wants to distance itself from Communism, but I wish they'd stop talking about ancient Russian knights and Cossack warriors. The real history is messy but much more interesting.
    Yes, his Japanese ties were his problem in the ultra patriotic days of Stalin. Many of the early histories don't even mention Oshchepkov, only Kharlampiev as the "father" of sambo. He reappears later (conveniently after the Russians start cleaning up in Judo in the 60s). Also, it is interesting to note that after WWII, sport sambo removed chokes (further distance from Judo).

    I agree about the systema "history". The real stuff is more interesting.
  6. jaroge is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2006 3:53pm


     Style: armchair asswuppin

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, is it safe to say that all history of Systema...at least to the best of anyone's knowledge here... is all based on the words of Ryabko and Vasiliev? I'm not saying that it necesarily invalidates it, just looking for some other corroborative source. Are there any teachers of Systema not related to the vasiliev, Ryabko camp?

    anyone?
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2006 4:52pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, is it safe to say that all history of Systema...at least to the best of anyone's knowledge here... is all based on the words of Ryabko and Vasiliev? I'm not saying that it necesarily invalidates it, just looking for some other corroborative source. Are there any teachers of Systema not related to the vasiliev, Ryabko camp?

    anyone?
    What we know of the history of Ryabko Systema is almost entirely based on the words of Ryabko and Vasiliev. There is a bit more available in English on the history of Kadochnikov Systema, ROSS, etc. - Google is your friend :happy7: - and very little on some other forms of Systema (Popov, etc.) that seem to be exclusively practiced in Eastern Europe.

    In general, though, the best English-language information on the history of modern RMA is via people who have investigated SAMBO history in some depth, as (AFAIK) almost literally every form of modern SAMBO and Systema are descended from common sources.

    Based on my research to date, the key is the Russian Government-sponsored H2H combat research and development project that was co-ordinated by the Dinamo physical training organisation in Moscow during the 1900s. AFAIK this was the only time any government, anywhere, actually funded generations of dedicated research into developing a close-combat training system and it drew from a huge range of MAs, combat sports and sciences from all over the world. It's a fascinating and important topic and deserves thorough documentation.

    Serious Google research using the names Spiridonov, Oshchepkov, Kharlampfiev, Ryabko and Kadochnikov, plus search-terms SAMBO, Dinamo, Systema and history, will net you about as much as is available on these subjects in English.
    Last edited by DdlR; 12/23/2006 5:37pm at .
  8. budoboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2006 12:25am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is my first post :confused2

    I've training in Systema for a couple years and have been to numerous trainings with Vlad Vasiliev and Mikhail Ryabko.

    At one seminar I asked Mikhail how old the name Systema was and what was it called beforehand. He said that the name Systema is relatively new (created by Vlad and Mikhail) and Mikhail used to call his training methods "poznai sebia" ("know yourself" in English).

    I went to week-long Mikhail seminar in Moscow in March and met a 20-year student of Mikhail's named Valentin. I asked him about the name poznai sebia. Valentin said Mikhail only called the training that for a short time and before that did not have a name for the training. Valentin said he asked Mikhail what to call it and he replied "You can call it whatever you like."

    From what I understand from Vlad, Mikhail's training was less systematic in the past and more about dishing out beatings.

    In my personal opinion Systema as it is known today was founded by Mikhail and Vlad and is based on their composite experiences with various martial arts (including many native Russian styles). I don't know what those styles are but assume each has its own interesting history.

    Jeff
  9. HANKtheTANK is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2006 4:19am


     Style: Systema & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd say if anyone approached Vlad and asked about the history, you would get a similar response to what budoboy has mentioned

    budoboy, u mention valentin, would that be Vlads brother, Valentin Vasiliev? just curious
  10. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2006 7:38am

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's important to understand that Systema is taught very differently than most MAs. The training is based on experiments with a set of key movement principles and tactics rather than on learning a curriculum of techniques.
    It's important to understand that it teaches you to do everything WRONG. The training is based on learning the WRONG set of movement principles and tactics rather than learning the RIGHT ones. This results in ZERO fighting ability.
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