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  1. Truth seeker is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 3:00pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Shou Shu, Al Moore's

    Family members in this Tracy Kenpo off shoot, Did not think of the cult aspect of this just knew it was BS. This artical sounds like it was written just for the parents of the shou shu students. But I guess their must be many of these guys out there.:pity:
  2. jtkarate is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 6:26pm


     Style: karate,judo,JJ,Aikido,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    cult = shaolin Do
  3. blindfury is offline
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    Master of the Shrimp

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 7:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is more than one Kung fu cult in Kentucky! I'll tell you guys more about one later
  4. chalkieusa is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 10:49pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, fellas, this brings backs memories, all of them bad!

    Knew my primary instructor for about 30 years, at least 20 of them actively.

    Taught classes for free, filled in when other instructors couldn't make their own classes, and even ran this guy's tournaments for him, not getting a dime! It got to be so bad, that if I didn't show up at a tournament, I had to provide a good excuse why!

    And to top it off, the Soke's wife demanded that I pay for training, which I was not getting. She starting to yell at me, and I informed her that I would turn her over to the Better Biz Bureau for making me pay for services I was not getting! Needless to say, that ended that.

    The final bit was when the cheating got so obvious at the tournaments that Ray Charles could have seen it, my wife and I approached him about it, and he refused to meet with us and address the issue. We then said that we would not support the tournaments by not coming anyone until this was at least addressed. Well his Sokeness then said that we were trying to take over his school and organization, booted my wife out, and I then quit. He maade a very big play for the biggest school that we had, about 45 students, and did not even bother with the smaller school, about 20 students. It was all about the payola.

    We have been asked to come back several times in the past 3 years, but have declined each time. I do not what any part of that old game anymore.
    Last edited by chalkieusa; 2/24/2007 10:51pm at .
  5. metarat is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 11:32pm


     Style: Taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tracy Kenpo? Whew! Went a couple months ago to check out the one Tracy affiliate in town, for my 14 year-old. It was only a half mile from my house, and had just gone out of business. Guess thats a lucky break.

    ALL the "pro" Tai Chi schools in Tucson (and most of the park-ies), possbily excepting one nice guy across town I have yet to check out, have cult-ish aspects. By that I mean: practice of information control, fostering a sense of difference and superiority from other TCC schools, passively or actively discouraging interaction with other groups or schools, and the elevation of the teacher to a status of unproven/unmerited height, usually by identifying the teacher with some "source" master and making the teacher the only means of access to said master, who is (ideally) far away and otherwise inaccessible.

    All of the above WITHOUT any competetion or serious sparring, you understand. There are "demos" and sometimes limited in-school sparring or partner practice, but with a little MA experience comes the realization that most of these are "Jedi Mind Tricks".

    Case in point, the Wu style Tai Chi folks, who when I first encountered them a few years ago either followed along in the footsteps of their dead teacher (and fought to be his official voice), or had to work through one entrepreneur who brought in a TC "master" from New Zealand.

    I had already been told that having studied Yang style previously I was "polluted" and would never get as far in the mastery of Wu style, per the late Dr. ----. Shortly after attending a seminar by "Great Master" --- --- ---, a former member of the Beijing Wushu Team, I pointed out that there were several competent and legitimate Wu stylists in L.A., and proceeded to bring one out for a seminar.

    Upshot: I am now persona non grata to 90% of the "community"; which is nice and peaceful, as I now have to listen to a lot less bullshit.

    Of course, my mouth helped, hehheh.

    Oh yeah, after setting up several Wu seminars, and also the local Whirled Tai Chi day, where those schools seeking students at least have to come out and perform their **** in public, I have heard that my old Yang style teacher now refers to me as "a Snake".
    Sssssss!
  6. Bladesinger is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 11:49pm


     Style: MMA, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Truth seeker
    Family members in this Tracy Kenpo off shoot, Did not think of the cult aspect of this just knew it was BS. This artical sounds like it was written just for the parents of the shou shu students. But I guess their must be many of these guys out there.:pity:

    What the **** are you trying to say here?
  7. Virus is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 11:54pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He said that Tracy family members have korean ninpo with written BS. Thinks sounds for cult and shou shou, who are there more of in there.
  8. Virus is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    2/25/2007 12:02am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Truth seeker
    Family members in this Tracy Kenpo off shoot, Did not think of the cult aspect of this just knew it was BS. This artical sounds like it was written just for the parents of the shou shu students. But I guess their must be many of these guys out there.:pity:
    Translation: Some members of my family train at a school which is an off-shoot of Tracey Kenpo. At first I did not see direct evidence of cult-like behavior, but my instincts told me that something was amiss. By the sound of the original article in the opening post, it could be said it was intended for the parents of children who have been led astray by the shou shu organisation. <laughs> It really is a shame that there are so many unscrupulous people in the martial arts taking advantage of the impressionable.
  9. ironlurker is offline
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    How do Chameleon Circuit?

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    Posted On:
    2/25/2007 12:23am


     Style: jkd

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This list was created in 1979 by Bonewits and I always thought
    it was pretty on-target. I know the FBI has used it to evaluate apocalyptic
    Christian groups. It's designed primarily for religious cults
    but I think it could be useful for MA ones as well. The idea is to
    rate each factor 1-10, with more points = more cultish.

    The "Drop Out Control" factor, wow, thats a huge one now that I think of it.
    I've heard of some schools where you can't even mention ex-students.
    http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html

    1. INTERNAL CONTROL: Amount of
    internal political power exercised
    by leader(s) over members.


    2. WISDOM CLAIMED by leader(s);
    amount of infallibility declared
    or implied about decisions or doc-
    trinal/scriptural interpretations.
    3. WISDOM CREDITED to leader(s)
    by members; amount of trust in
    decisions or doctrinal/scriptural
    interpretations made by leader(s).

    4. DOGMA: Rigidity of reality con-
    cepts taught; amount of doctrinal
    inflexibility or "fundamentalism."

    5. RECRUITING: Emphasis put on
    attracting new members; amount
    of proselytizing.
    6. FRONT GROUPS: Number of subsid-
    iary groups using different names
    from that of main group.

    7. WEALTH: Amount of money and/or
    property desired or obtained by group;
    emphasis on members' donations;
    economic lifestyle of leader(s)
    compared to ordinary members.

    8. POLITICAL POWER: Amount of
    external political influence
    desired or obtained; emphasis on
    directing members' secular votes.

    9. SEXUAL MANIPULATION: of members
    by leader(s); amount of control
    exercised over sexuality of members;
    advancement dependent upon sexual
    favors or specific lifestyle.


    10. CENSORSHIP: Amount of control
    over members' access to outside
    opinions on group, its doctrines
    or leader(s).

    11. DROPOUT CONTROL: Intensity of
    efforts directed at preventing or
    returning dropouts.

    12. VIOLENCE: amount of approval when
    used by or for the group, its
    doctrines or leader(s).

    13. PARANOIA: amount of fear con-
    cerning real or imagined enemies;
    perceived power of opponents;
    prevalence of conspiracy theories.

    14. GRIMNESS: Amount of disapproval
    concerning jokes about the group,
    its doctrines or its leader(s).

    15. SURRENDER OF WILL: Amount of
    emphasis on members not having to
    be responsible for personal deci-
    sions; degree of individual dis-
    empowerment created by the group,
    its doctrines or its leader(s).

    16. HYPOCRISY: amount of approval for
    other actions (not included above)

    which the group officially considers
    immoral or unethical, when done by or
    for the group, its doctrines or
    leader(s); willingness to violate
    group's declared principles for
    political, psychological, economic,
    or other gain.
  10. Truth seeker is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/25/2007 2:21pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Thank you Mr Virus,

    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    Translation: Some members of my family train at a school which is an off-shoot of Tracey Kenpo. At first I did not see direct evidence of cult-like behavior, but my instincts told me that something was amiss. By the sound of the original article in the opening post, it could be said it was intended for the parents of children who have been led astray by the shou shu organisation. <laughs> It really is a shame that there are so many unscrupulous people in the martial arts taking advantage of the impressionable.
    Al Moore's Shou Shu History

    http://homepage.mac.com/tony_baltera/shou_shu/Interview.pdf


    See if you agree?
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