Are armbars on the ground purely a Japanese technique?

**goosetherumfoodle** · Posted On: 1/09/2007 1:21am

Originally Posted by ChinoXL

http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_leonard_0802.htm

well if nothing else this thread has taught me that judo was at some point just as full of **** as many ninjers of today are.

**Sophist** · Posted On: 1/09/2007 6:02am

Originally Posted by goosetherumfoodle

well if nothing else this thread has taught me that judo was at some point just as full of **** as many ninjers of today are.

Yeah. That's a crazy little piece of history. For most of the article you find yourself tetchily agreeing with the wrestler as the jujitsu man spews bullshido... and then at the end the jujitsu guy presents the highest-percentage submission ever and the wrestler goes, "Nope, that'll never work."

It is worth mentioning though that as judo spread out from the Kodokan, it was taught in schools that had been koryu jujitsu schools, alongside koryu jujitsu curriculums. Some of the secretive koryu mentality and love of "deadly" techniques likely remained for a long time in schools outside the Kodokan, so it's not altogether surprising some of the jujitsu men who made it to the West are found making some very odd comments. Apart from the odd semi-mystical comment on principles of the higher kata, you don't hear much recorded from Kano himself along these lines.

**ChinoXL** · Posted On: 1/23/2007 3:18am

if you read from the book "mastering jujitsu" u'll see that it also backs up my point.. i'm too lazy to make citations right now. On the sidenote alot of you guys that are stating "armbars" are in fact not armbars.. we're talkin about on the floor and straight arm. Not keylock (americana) , kimura, or the russian arm drag (takedown//arm bar/break technique)

**Res Judicata** · Posted On: 1/23/2007 5:39pm

Originally Posted by goosetherumfoodle

well if nothing else this thread has taught me that judo was at some point just as full of **** as many ninjers of today are.

Higashi wasn't a judoka. He was a jujustu guy who came to the US, but wasn't judo. He and Hancock wrote a book about "Judo" called the Complete Kano Jiu-jitsu, that got him in some trouble with Kano -- since it wasn't Kano's Judo/jujustu.

**TEA** · Posted On: 1/29/2007 11:36am

Originally Posted by slideyfoot

Difficult to make out on some of these, but might be something similar on this page.

Towards the bottom, this 16th century India relief looks pretty dead on for a reverse armbar from some sort of pass from half-guard.

From what I've read, Indian MA were heavily influenced by the Greeks ala Alexander the Great, so this may be an example of one of the pankration techniques that the Indians adopted.

**TheOtherChris** · Posted On: 2/28/2007 5:36am

That's probably kama-sutra, though.

**Stew** · Posted On: 2/28/2007 2:02pm

This link is about Talhoffer's dagger methods. Item 174 shows what apears to be an armbar as part of a dagger defense. http://www.truefork.org/DragonPreser.../Talhoffer.php

**Blue Negation** · Posted On: 2/28/2007 2:10pm

NOTE THE TOPIC NAME

armbars - ON THE GROUND

every grappling system ever has that standing armbar/throw thing.

**Stew** · Posted On: 2/28/2007 3:03pm

True, I was refering to the second panel of item 174 where the two look like they have wound up on the ground and the one on top appears to be applying an armbar of sorts.