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  1. Stolenbjorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 8:58am


     Style: Medieval Italian (WMA)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChinoXL
    Hello Angry_Spastic; it seems to me you need help; well if the armbar was in the pankration//pancritum era then it would of been carried over to olympic styles; or wrestlers nowdays would be aware of it; however due to the developements of jjj//judo//bjj the armbar is now known around the world due to mma events. Yes it was originally a japanese technique since you're a historian you would find this article interesting http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_leonard_0802.htm
    I find it pretty bombastic to conclude that this have been done only in Japan originally.

    Interresting though; that theory that it only works with people wearng GI.

    From european manuals, we know of tons of armbreaks that works on a straight arm, but none of theese techniques are shown when they're on the ground. That doesn't mean that they didn't do it if the oppertunity arouse, it just means that it wasn't shown in the manuals; nothing more, nothing less.
  2. velomaster is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 10:25am


     Style: bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChinoXL
    catch certainly has arm breaking techniques but the straight armbar on the floor itself is japanese. It's simply too "risky" for a catch wrestler to pull it off. Look at my link the wrestler was criticizing the armbar technique. It was also a japanese technique due to the fact that it's much easier to apply with a gi on opposed to wrestling; and wrestlers for one in the old days would criticize the arm bar by saying you a. cannot secure it because arms are always bent, and b. it would be too risky anyway; wrestlers would use keylocks/americanas and kimuras it was a japanese technique.
    The so called kimura was another technique 'borrowed' from catchwrestling.
  3. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 7:39pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by velomaster
    The so called kimura was another technique 'borrowed' from catchwrestling.
    Yeah right.
  4. Blue Negation is offline

    Woke up in the mortuary

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2007 10:25pm


     Style: Judo, Sub wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kimuras certainly did not come from catch. Koryu arts had them well before the japanese knew of catch's existence. Velomaster needs to go suck Cecchine's cock some more, I hear bullshit tastes better with catchwrestler sperm seasoning.

    Armbars do not require the gi to work. They're one of the leading finishers in MMA, for Helio's sake.
  5. Stolenbjorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2007 4:59am


     Style: Medieval Italian (WMA)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, Catch as Can shows theese armbars from before they knew about the japaneese as well, so I guess the golden rule "IF IT WORKS IN JAPAN, IT WORKS ANYWHERE ELSE AND HAVE PROBABLY BEEN DONE THERE AS WELL" -applies to this too, then.
    I've never bought the idea that a certain technique have arosen in a given culture, then beeing spread across the globe...

    (Fun how egyptian wresteling-pictures that are 3000 bc shows techniques allso found in asian and european systems, and I've been discussing Longsword and katana with a Shinten Ryu Kenjutsu-dude, and we were both surprised to see just how much of the stuff is the same.)
    Last edited by Stolenbjorn; 1/05/2007 5:03am at .
  6. Blue Negation is offline

    Woke up in the mortuary

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2007 10:16am


     Style: Judo, Sub wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Stolenbjorn - for your information: you have been consistently misusing the term "armbar" as it is used in English for this thread. "Armbar" almost always refers only to a straight armlock where the elbow is the joint being attacked, whereas "Keylocks" and "Kimuras" are bent armlocks mostly attacking the shoulder. Catch wrestling had, I believe, Keylocks (also known as Americanas) and Kimuras (both known as ude garami in judo) but no straight armbars, known as juji-gatame in judo.
  7. velomaster is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2007 3:41pm


     Style: bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation
    Kimuras certainly did not come from catch. Koryu arts had them well before the japanese knew of catch's existence. Velomaster needs to go suck Cecchine's cock some more, I hear bullshit tastes better with catchwrestler sperm seasoning.

    Armbars do not require the gi to work. They're one of the leading finishers in MMA, for Helio's sake.
    What! I guess you find Jap sperm more tasty wanna be!
  8. Stolenbjorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2007 3:15am


     Style: Medieval Italian (WMA)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation
    Stolenbjorn - for your information: you have been consistently misusing the term "armbar" as it is used in English for this thread. "Armbar" almost always refers only to a straight armlock where the elbow is the joint being attacked, whereas "Keylocks" and "Kimuras" are bent armlocks mostly attacking the shoulder. Catch wrestling had, I believe, Keylocks (also known as Americanas) and Kimuras (both known as ude garami in judo) but no straight armbars, known as juji-gatame in judo.
    Thanks for the lesson :eng101:

    Trying to use the terms correctly and to conclude my "research" so far on this topic:

    Straight armbars occur on several occations in many historical european martial arts from 1400 onwards, but non of the pictures shows them done on the ground. On those manual-pictures that shows that a fight have gone to the ground, they usually shows how the fight ends with a "keylock" combinied with a daggerthrust to a vulnerable location.
  9. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/08/2007 5:17pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There are examples of armbars on the ground in chin na as well, but not the kind you'd look at and think BJJ immediately. Lets say your opponent strikes, reaches etc his arm towards you. You grab the outside of his wrist with one hand and use the ulna of your other hand to hit/pressure the elbow joint. You turn the pressure towards the ground to force him there. From there, your sit your knee onto his tricep and crank on his arm. One of the first principles of chin na (as I learned it) was to trap your opponent between pain and the ground. I also recall seeing armbars in groundfighting in a mande muda silat sampling in the Dog Brothers Kali Tudo set, where someone was demonstrating traditional silat techniques.
  10. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    1/08/2007 9:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    More fuel for the fire... Take this as you will from somebody with the real catch wrestling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Wicks
    We are trying to keep vintage Catch Wrestling alive. As Catch Wrestlers, we are aware of other styles of Wrestling, such as armbars and triangles. Wrestling off your back, we don't do that of course. As Catch wrestlers, we get behind your opponent to control him and cause discomfort looking for your hook or your submission holds. We don't want to loose the style of Catch Wrestling from 1890 - 1940's when real Catch Wrestling was being practiced
    Please note as there seems to be some different terminolgy going on here. This is in reference to a straight armbar.

    Now, please continue your aguing. :new_argue
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    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
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