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  1. velomaster is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2006 8:06pm


     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    During the Meiji Restoration there was extensive crosstraing between catch wrestling and judo/jujitsu and the Japanese were aparently fascinated by catchwrestling groundwork.

    Check this out: www.answers.com/topic/ad-santel
  2. Sir Ocelot is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2006 9:11pm


     Style: WMA (various)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Being as Fiore is fairly old, I would think that it could have incorporated some moves from other fighting styles, including Grec-Roman Wrestling.
    It's a lot older than Greco-Roman. (Which, despite the name, comes from 19th century France.) Fiore's surviving texts date back to around 1410.

    So are there any examples of armbars in it?
    There's Abrazare play #2 here. It's supposed to put the opponent on the ground, but there's no discussion beyond that point.
  3. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2006 9:45pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    I was actually thinking of Mjelva's current av:


    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...5&postcount=15

    which is technically a triangle, but it sure looks like he's going to roll right into the armbar.
    Is that picture authentic? It's very interesting if it is, I always thought it was a modern image stylised to look like an ancient Greek one.
  4. Stolenbjorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2006 2:10am


     Style: Medieval Italian (WMA)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    I didnt say that the picture was of an armbar on the ground.....If you read english as well as you type it then I can see where you got confused.
    Well, what can I say? sorry if i misunderstood you. I basically agreed to all you wrote in your post, and my post was not meant as a contradiction to your post.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    In Fiore' I am sure that they cover actual scenarios where fights go to the ground right?
    It is not shown in the manuals, that doesn't mean they didn't practice it, but there is no proof on black and white to link to the threadstarter.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    I gather from my research that it is a mostly weapons based style, but in the event that a fight does go down, do they teach jont locks and then a weapon attack, or just a straight weapon attack?
    If the opponent is thrown, you kill them with your weapon. If the opponent goes down and you don't have a weapon, I guess you go down with them, but it isn't shown in the manuals. If you both go down, it's still an open fight, and the system shows pleanty of armbars (kalled keys in the system), and applying logics would suggest that Fiore couldn't care less wether you did the armbar standing or lying on the ground, as long as you live to fight another day.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Being as Fiore is fairly old, I would think that it could have incorporated some moves from other fighting styles, including Grec-Roman Wrestling. So are there any examples of armbars in it?
    There are plenty of armbars in most european weapons-systems. Wether they're derived from Roman/greec or wether the re-envented the gunpowder, is impossible to proove.

    I've been talking to a friend that does german early renissanse wresteling, and he sais that there are at least two techniques shown in manuals where you go down with the opponent, one of them applying a choke-hold and knee in the kidneys. (he believed it would be called a "side mount" in english?) The other technique is a counter to a "shoot-attack", where you try to offset the shooters balance, and land on the back of his head with your belly, driving his face down into the ground (sorry, no armbars). I'll see if I can find pics on the net, so you can see for yourself so you don't have to get upset about my poor english:icon_cher

    He allso talks about a more modern system (predesessor to olympic wresteling?), called "Catch as Can", that is from the 19th century, that have plenty of armbars in groundplay; I'll see if I can find pics of that as well.
    Last edited by Stolenbjorn; 12/13/2006 2:13am at .
  5. JohnnyCache is offline
    JohnnyCache's Avatar

    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2006 2:27am

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze
    Is that picture authentic? It's very interesting if it is, I always thought it was a modern image stylised to look like an ancient Greek one.
    I don't know - you'd have to ask him.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  6. Stolenbjorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2006 2:36am


     Style: Medieval Italian (WMA)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is german "shoot-fighting" from 1520; bound to go to the ground, or what?
    http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Passchen/passchen54.jpg

    -and here is the counter, the one I mentioned in my previous post; the text sais that you pull at least one leg back, lean over his head and pulls his trousers, so he falls on his head:
    http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Passchen/passchen51.jpg

    Here's an armbar (?) and it could be done on the ground as well, I guess.
    http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/149.jpg

    Again; no armbar, but at least proof of a fight going down in europe, and how to deal with it. Most of the manuals shows throws, but from own experience, when you fail a throw both go down on occation. There is pressious little info on how to behave once on the ground in the manuals, though...
    http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/sf13.JPG

    Threadstarter: If you want to browse yourself, check out this site:
    http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm
  7. Stolenbjorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2006 2:42am


     Style: Medieval Italian (WMA)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    after some more web-browsing, I found this:
    "
    Philadelphia MS2444
    Side A: trainer watching wrestlers
    Photograph by Maria Daniels, courtesy of The University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology
    Like the modern sport, an athlete needed to throw his opponent on the ground, landing on a hip, shoulder, or back for a fair fall. 3 throws were necessary to win a match. Biting was not allowed, and genital holds were also illegal. Attacks such as breaking your opponent's fingers were permitted. "
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Olympic...1.07.1155.jpeg

    and this site:
    http://historical-pankration.com/act...hive=Wrestling
  8. ChinoXL is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2007 9:15pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: bjj, san-da, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hello Angry_Spastic; it seems to me you need help; well if the armbar was in the pankration//pancritum era then it would of been carried over to olympic styles; or wrestlers nowdays would be aware of it; however due to the developements of jjj//judo//bjj the armbar is now known around the world due to mma events. Yes it was originally a japanese technique since you're a historian you would find this article interesting http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_leonard_0802.htm
  9. velomaster is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2007 12:44am


     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Olympic wrestling has no submissions. However, catchwrestling has plenty of armbars and catchwrestling did influence Judo/Jujitsu during the Meiji era.
  10. ChinoXL is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2007 6:32am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: bjj, san-da, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    catch certainly has arm breaking techniques but the straight armbar on the floor itself is japanese. It's simply too "risky" for a catch wrestler to pull it off. Look at my link the wrestler was criticizing the armbar technique. It was also a japanese technique due to the fact that it's much easier to apply with a gi on opposed to wrestling; and wrestlers for one in the old days would criticize the arm bar by saying you a. cannot secure it because arms are always bent, and b. it would be too risky anyway; wrestlers would use keylocks/americanas and kimuras it was a japanese technique.
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