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  1. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2006 12:04pm

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Join the club. Funny thing is, Choi was friends with Oyama. How different would things be if Choi had developed his TKD along the lines of Kyokushin? ...Or, you know, if I had just learned Kyokushin instead.
  2. babo78 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2006 12:24pm


     Style: Yudo, Karate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W.
    Join the club. Funny thing is, Choi was friends with Oyama. How different would things be if Choi had developed his TKD along the lines of Kyokushin? ...Or, you know, if I had just learned Kyokushin instead.
    How different would things be if Oyama (Korean) moved back to Korea and founded Kyokushin there and if Choi went to Japan and founded his TKD in Japan...
  3. Axelton is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2006 12:39pm


     Style: Wing Chun, Hung Gar

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by babo78
    How different would things be if Oyama (Korean) moved back to Korea and founded Kyokushin there and if Choi went to Japan and founded his TKD in Japan...
    the world would implode.
  4. MaverickZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2006 12:53pm

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     Style: white boy jiujitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Choi
    My daily schedule in those days was: …4 pm – 5 pm: Karate practice
    Hahaha, I train more than he did.
  5. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2006 2:51pm

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Choi did not coin the term Taekwondo, the guy was a military opportunist and full of ****. Enjoy the read…it’s fiction.
    MSUTKD, your post is actually not at all helpful. First of all, AFAIK, Choi coming up with the name TKD is the one thing people agree he actually did do. Second, you should be able to tell by my posts (if you bothered to read them) that I am not a Choi apologist. Third, if you have detailed info of what specifically Choi lied about please post it. I suspect you do not and are simply parroting the "Choi didn't found ****! Hurr, Hurr!1!!11" stuff you've heard. But if not, please post something a little more meaningful than calling his memoirs "fiction" (when clearly there are some parts that are verifiably true).
  6. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2006 4:43pm

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In a word, there was no pole that escaped my punches or kicks.
    (v.1 p.87)

    In this chapter Choi recounts several of his exploits as a karateka, including another huge part of his mythos which is how he used to kick (and apparently punch) light/electricity poles so hard that the power lines would sway back and forth. There is also another incident where he is attacked by 2 “Taiwanese gangsters” that were also in his class. He punches one in the face, knocking him down, and then pins the guy by putting his foot on his neck. At that point the other guy runs away.

    Let me digress a little to talk about karate.
    (v.1 p.91)

    Here he gives a “history of karate.” This is my summary: Karate began in Okinawa where it was called “Doh-Te.” In 1922 it was brought to Japan by an Okinawan named “Hoonigoshi” (Funakoshi???) As it became popular in Japan, Doh-Te (which Choi Koreanizes as “Tang-soo”) was changed to Karate, because the Japanese didn’t want a name connected to the Chinese Tang Dynasty.

    He then tells how he visited the headquarters of “Hoonigoshi” (whom he refers to as “the founding father of karate”) called the Sho-Dok-Gaang. Unfortunately, Hoonigoshi isn’t there, so Choi and his club join the other students for training. There he is sucker punched (kicked, actually) by a Japanese student, but Choi executes a forearm block and breaks the guy’s foot. Choi then explains how this makes the other guy look bad and him look good. [Thanks for the heads up, Choi, I don’t think I would have gotten it, otherwise! :rolleyes:]

    [/quote]My displaced veins are proof of how far I practiced to strengthen my wrist…[/quote] (v.1 p.93)

    The students then all have a competition to try and march from Tokyo to Kamakura. Guess what? Choi wins! Well, at least he is one of only 10 to make it. But, get this… Then they have a push-up contest which… Choi wins! He does “300 repetitions.” Holy crap, if that’s true he was mad strong. Unfortunately I have my doubts that it is true.

    It is also interesting to note that this period is described as “High School”, and in the pictures they do look like teenagers. Yet, the last date given in the memoir was when he was in Kyoto (before traveling to Tokyo where these events take place) was 1938, which would have put him at 20. At one point he says he spent 4-5 years in Tokyo, which would put him in his early 20’s.

    …The Japanese gov’t drafted all the university and college students in early 1943
    (v.1 p.98)

    This is when, as a Law School student at the age of 24, Choi was drafted into the Japanese army.

    …I was a karate black belt and very domineering.
    (v.1 p.116)

    This is the first reference in the memoirs of Choi’s rank in karate. And it is pretty vague.

    Nevertheless, after I secretly trained the horse with my fists and kicks inside the base stable, it became docile within several days…
    One of Choi’s first army duties (in a machine gun company) was to care for the horses that pulled the guns around. Apparently he used his karate skills to beat them into submission. I wonder if this is included by Choi to match the exploits of Oyama who knocked out bulls? Anyway, weird.
  7. CanucKyokushin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2006 6:23pm

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     Style: Not.....working

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W.
    (v.1 p.87)

    In this chapter Choi recounts several of his exploits as a karateka, including another huge part of his mythos which is how he used to kick (and apparently punch) light/electricity poles so hard that the power lines would sway back and forth. There is also another incident where he is attacked by 2 “Taiwanese gangsters” that were also in his class. He punches one in the face, knocking him down, and then pins the guy by putting his foot on his neck. At that point the other guy runs away.
    I remember seeing pictures of old telephones poles they used that was made of thin tree trunks back in the old days here in canada.So this doesn't smack me as being an impossible feat.

    Gangters stuff.Well everyone seems to use it now and again in their bio's.Could be totally made up.But I don't have to tell you,do I?

    (v.1 p.91)
    Here he gives a “history of karate.” This is my summary: Karate began in Okinawa where it was called “Doh-Te.” In 1922 it was brought to Japan by an Okinawan named “Hoonigoshi” (Funakoshi???) As it became popular in Japan, Doh-Te (which Choi Koreanizes as “Tang-soo”) was changed to Karate, because the Japanese didn’t want a name connected to the Chinese Tang Dynasty.
    The Tang-so do wording is not and has never been Okinawan.

    The Doh-Te seems to me to be wrong.It was for quite a while called simply Okinawa-Te.However,Choi is using korean terms to describe japanse ones.Which is strange.

    You might want to ask DerAuslander for a translation.You might even want to ask Evil Asia also to confirm this.




    The students then all have a competition to try and march from Tokyo to Kamakura. Guess what? Choi wins! Well, at least he is one of only 10 to make it. But, get this… Then they have a push-up contest which… Choi wins! He does “300 repetitions.” Holy crap, if that’s true he was mad strong. Unfortunately I have my doubts that it is true.
    That is interesting.Becausae we all know that teenagers are all in great shape.

    [QUOTE]It is also interesting to note that this period is described as “High School”, and in the pictures they do look like teenagers. Yet, the last date given in the memoir was when he was in Kyoto (before traveling to Tokyo where these events take place) was 1938, which would have put him at 20. At one point he says he spent 4-5 years in Tokyo, which would put him in his early 20’s.
    (v.1 p.98)

    This is when, as a Law School student at the age of 24, Choi was drafted into the Japanese army.

    (v.1 p.116)

    This is the first reference in the memoirs of Choi’s rank in karate. And it is pretty vague.
    Vagueness could have a lot to do with less formality in those days to a blackbelt.Altought in could have also to do with Choi not having any credentials to offer.
  8. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2006 6:41pm

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm glad somebody finds this **** interesting besides me. Thanks for the responses folks. And I think I will drop Asia and Der a pm (though Der's a tool). I was kind of hoping TKDBB might chime in too.
  9. D Dempsey is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2006 9:06pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Canuckyokushin
    The Tang-so do wording is not and has never been Okinawan.

    The Doh-Te seems to me to be wrong.It was for quite a while called simply Okinawa-Te.However,Choi is using korean terms to describe japanse ones.Which is strange.

    You might want to ask DerAuslander for a translation.You might even want to ask Evil Asia also to confirm this.
    I've got a book on Okinawan Karate by Mark Bishop and it pretty much lines up with this translation. The Okinawans refered to it as Tote which translated to china hand or chinese boxing, something along thoughs lines. It was appearantly Funikoshi who changed it to kara-te. Tang So would be a direct translation.
  10. Acaman69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2006 12:50am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    MattW, why is it that you claim to be sharing items from a book when you give two lines and then two paragraphs telling us what it means. No glory in winning a debate when you control the content and volume of both sides.

    Every single ITF style practitioner studied under someone who was lead by General Choi. Keep in mind the difference between tough guy fighters like Oyama and Gracie and General Choi is the same as the difference between a soldier and...well, a General. Generals create and lead great soldiers and every now and then a great soldier rises to the ranks of General. General Choi may not have been much of a fighter, he may not even have trained much but he was a powerful character who could combine the strengths of many and be the hub that holds it all together. His early Instructors like Kong Yong Il, Lee Su-Ki, Park Jong Soo were incredible Martial Artists. It was them and those like them that developed the technique. General Choi only ever taught patterns and details within those patterns, you never saw him giving kicking seminars or sparring or anything like it.

    General Choi Hong Hi is like most leaders who get all the credit for the works of others. Without the strength, ability and dedication of real Martial Artists Choi on his own was nothing. Then again, the others without Choi would be nothing as well and ITF Taekwon-Do would not exist. It was his ability to create himself as a God to these people that kept it all together. He realized it so he milked it for his entire life.

    The art of manipulation is not unique in the world. General Choi was not the first to use it in Martial Arts but he certainly was the best.
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