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  1. Blues-man is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2006 9:00pm


     Style: TKD ITF, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have found this interview with Grand Master Kong Young Il.

    http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_MasterKong.html

    This is very interesting, but it doesn't mention the sparring rules.

    During 1963 to 1980, Grand Master Kong traveled around the world with General Choi Hong Hi, as a selected member of an International Tae Kwon Do demonstration team. He visited 127 countries performing demonstrations to introduce Taekwon-do Martial Art to the world. After each demonstration there was an open invitation/challenge to the public to fight any demonstration team member. Grand Master Kong fought martial artists of all kinds in 127 countries and never lost a fight.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Second, the books were riddled with typos. They had the same person’s name spelled different ways throughout (Nam Tae-Hi, Nahm Tae-Hee, etc.), with a constant switching back and forth between the Asian and Western way of placing the surname. There was one point where the same story was repeated three times in succession. And there were a bunch of plain old typos and spelling errors.

    Third, and last, the memoirs were disjointed. He jumped back and forth and was very unclear and ambiguous on dates. Mostly, he simply didn’t bother to mention dates at all.
    I think that the memoirs where originally written in korean, so that's why there's many errors in the translation. There's a vol. 3, but it has not been translated.
  2. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2006 9:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So Choi changed karate simply because he wanted a Korean martial art instead of a Japanese one? Why the emphasis on kicking? Do you think the tae kyon he did as a kid was the influence, or is there something about Korean culture that lends itself to kicking (seems like all Korean martial arts are way into kicking)?
  3. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2006 12:04am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by emboesso
    Whatever the official kwan sparring rules were, and the subsequent TKD rules, I'm quite sure open nights were much more commonplace 50 years ago. The official rules probably only came into play during testing, and occasionally during official sparring in class.

    But in the days of the kwans, and the early TKD days, I've heard they were much more lax and the sparring could get quite hot and heavy.
    It all depended on the Gwan.

    During the first Taesudo testing, boxing gloves were required, because face punching was de rigour.

    This was the first attempt at unified sparring rules
  4. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/27/2006 12:09am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by emboesso
    I'll give you a passage from my TKD Bible; "Korean Karate; The Art of Tae Kwon Do" by Son Duk Sun, 1968, a book Der Auslander must be sick of hearing me refer to by now.

    "The Koreans put more emphasis on the use of the feet than the other forms of martial art. This may be because Korea has so many steep hills and deep valleys that there would be a greater development of the legs of its inhabitants. Or it may be because the Koreans regard hands as fine, creative instruments and the feet as the more practical instruments of locomotion."
    I still need to get that book.

    While I find very little evidence in the way of a direct co-relation between Taegyeon and TKD, having trained in both, I am willing to allow for a cultural link.

    In the West, Boxing has been our premier fighting method for centuries. The idea of "putting your dukes up" was the manly way of fighting. Even wrestling included striking for a great deal of its history.

    Taegyeon for centuries was the Korean combat sport, along with Ssireum's grappling. Even when the sport fell out of practice, the idea of slamming your foot into your opponent's face was what defined the Korean mindset of combative domination. Thus, when it came time to adapt Karate into the Korean martial psyche, it seemed only nature that Karate's round, side, and front kicks be practiced extensively and adapted upon.
  5. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2007 1:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    After each demonstration there was an open invitation/challenge to the public to fight any demonstration team member. Grand Master Kong fought martial artists of all kinds in 127 countries and never lost a fight.
    Interesting, but this doesn’t fit with Choi’s account at all. I know you said the rules were not explained, but were there any descriptions of these “fights”?

    I think that the memoirs where originally written in korean, so that's why there's many errors in the translation.
    I understand that they may have been translated, but that does not excuse the typos. There is no reason not to decide on a standard usage for names and Romanization. There is also no excuse for not proof reading the text before printing. It’s shoddy work. Not that any of that matters as far as the history of TKD, but it is further evidence that this was made by and for Choi and not by legitimate scholars of history or publishing houses. Which, if that is so, means that none of the “facts” contained within the memoirs were checked or verified by independent researchers.

    So Choi changed karate simply because he wanted a Korean martial art instead of a Japanese one?
    Yes. Allegedly the MA he created was superior to karate, but you are correct about his motivation.

    Do you think the tae kyon he did as a kid was the influence…
    That’s the myth that gets propagated, yes. However, I think it is pretty obvious, even in the memoirs, that Choi’s exposure to TK was minimal and when he was very young. Karate was the only art he studied in any depth. So all that stuff about TKD being an improvement over (and being the best of) kung-fu, karate and other MA is pure bunk. It’s a karate derivative. Period. Is it different now? Yes. As different as Goju is from Kyokushin or shotokan. Is it Korean? Sure. In the sense that the changes were made and developed by Koreans. But it is only very loosely based on (“inspired by” would be a better term) any “traditional” Korean MA, if even that.

    During the first Taesudo testing, boxing gloves were required, because face punching was de rigour.
    Der, is there a reference you can site for this, or a quote from said reference? I’d be interesting in hearing about it.

    While I find very little evidence in the way of a direct co-relation between Taegyeon and TKD, having trained in both, I am willing to allow for a cultural link.
    This fits with my understanding, which is that TKD was at most “inspired by” older Korean arts, but has no direct connection technique-wise.

    Even when the sport fell out of practice, the idea of slamming your foot into your opponent's face was what defined the Korean mindset of combative domination.
    This is an interesting bit of Korean culture that someone like me would otherwise not know about. It’s a piece of the puzzle that fits well. Thanks for contributing.
  6. shintek is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2007 1:16pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Kicks...

    I also remember reading somewhere that ancient Koreans did not like to use their hands to administer a beat-down, mostly to not get them dirty, put their hands at risk, and just because you wouldn't want to actually 'touch' a peasant or a beggar with your hands, because, it's just like, gross. So, they just literally wanted to 'kick' butt instead. Makes sense to me. Does it work well? Maybe not. Is it stylish and fun? Yes! :-) Triple board break in the air FTW!

    Also, about the earlier question about Judo in the 1930's: Judo was very much more hardcore than now. Kano developed Judo from his own synthesis of different ryu's of ju-jitsu, basically rejecting what he thought was fluff, while retaining the best parts, all the same time creating a system where students could practice safely, but with full intent (quite brilliant). Anyway. Most early students of Judo were accomplished ma'ers, with extensive experience in one style of ju-jitsu or another. Street fights would take place, with different schools participating. Judo supposedly did very well generally (but this might be related to the caliber of the students more than anything else, who knows). But the differences in modern olympic judo and traditionnal Kano style can be seen quite clearly in older publications, like the Complete Kano Jiu-Jistu, complete with pictures, SD, kicks and punches, kuatsu, etc. So I find the stories of this Choi character beating a judo guy (in that time period no less) to be completely retarded and far-fetched.

    Small question: is it me, or does the Karate-Do book by Funakoshi (his biography one, my title my not be exact) smell of bullshido as well? This whole Choi thing reminded me of that. Incidentally, there doesn't seem to be much crap written about Kano. He never came off as someone making **** up, in my opinion.
    Last edited by shintek; 3/16/2007 1:27pm at .
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