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  1. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/16/2006 10:19pm

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     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CelticSword
    Mr. Ninja

    The invite to his discussion board stands. Post your questions there and you can always copy your question and his response here, if you wish. You will be treated with the utmost respect at his board, unlike how some people here seem to revil in their infancy.

    With the warm fuzzy greeting I have gotten here so far, its no wonder that Bullshido has garnered the reputation it now has. And, I actually think that its original purpose was a great idea.

    I have made no claims here. I have simply pointed some people to some potential answers and yet, still no dialog except the occassional F-bomb (hey, what a novel idea to increase my amount of posts).


    You try and point some people to a "link" that may contain some answers for them and you get the response that your a "troll". So you get ridiculed if you don't answer a question here and then ridiculed when you do answer one - that must be a tactic in Sun Tzu's writing that I overlooked.
    Bullshido is an equal playing field where edits or post deletions are done ONLY by the users choice or when in violation of TOS ( which are very very easy to follow )

    I am sorry for your concerns over the language used ... I was under the impression most of us here are adult enough to over look swearing .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    “I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  2. CelticSword is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2006 10:31pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Warcraft

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am sorry for your concerns over the language used ... I was under the impression most of us here are adult enough to over look swearing .

    It is not the swearing per se, it is that the swearing was a majority of the post with no intelligent dialog to be found.
    Last edited by CelticSword; 12/16/2006 10:46pm at .
  3. CelticSword is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2006 10:36pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Warcraft

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Claus

    Onward to the question, Celtic Sword, was blaise a member of the special forces. if so when did he go through the Q course?

    Mr. Ninja: Here is a direct quote from Blaise Loong on his discussion board that should answer your question. The quote is dated 04/07/05.



    (Quote)"....the U.S. Army's Special Forces Combatives Course(s) that I helped to develop in Feb. 1985 for the 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne) at Fort Lewis, WA, along with other proven military\warcraft close quarter tactics that I have since become aware of.

    Prior to 1st Group's reactivation, I worked w\personnel of the 5th SFG(A) and the Tahan Pran of the Royal Thai Army. My official designation was "civilian advisor". I was never a US soldier."(Un-Quote)


    (By the way, I don't live on this board so don't always expect an immediate answer)
  4. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2006 10:40pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CelticSword
    Mr. Ninja: Here is a direct quote from Blaise Loong on his discussion board that should answer your question. The quote is dated 04/07/05.



    (Quote)"....the U.S. Army's Special Forces Combatives Course(s) that I helped to develop in Feb. 1985 for the 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne) at Fort Lewis, WA, along with other proven military\warcraft close quarter tactics that I have since become aware of.

    Prior to 1st Group's reactivation, I worked w\personnel of the 5th SFG(A) and the Tahan Pran of the Royal Thai Army. My official designation was "civilian advisor". I was never a US soldier."(Un-Quote)


    (By the way, I don't live on this board so don't always expect an immediate answer)
    Okay, thats pretty clear regarding his military experiences. Now when you talk to him, will one of you draft a reply to the comments of the guy who started this thread? I'm really curious who actually has a better claim to be teaching an Apache martial art.
  5. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/16/2006 10:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This thread makes baby Jeebus cry.
  6. Sun Wukong is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/16/2006 11:01pm


     Style: Boxing/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You said it man. What the **** happened here? It's like two people got food poisoning at the same restaurant and then started arguing about whose **** is more toxic.
    A lie gets half-way around the world before the truth has time to get it's pants on. - Winston Churchhill
  7. CelticSword is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2006 11:02pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Warcraft

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Claus
    I'm really curious who actually has a better claim to be teaching an Apache martial art.
    Ninja, glad to be having a real conversation here on Bushido.

    With respect to your direct question of who has the better claim to "Apache martial arts" To my knowledge, Blaise has never claimed to be better than or worse than anyone else including the person that started this thread (who by the way has been curiously absent here). Blaise has never spoken to or commented about the person that started this thread. The only person making any claims here is the person that started the thread. Quite frankly, we don't know who the Shazaam (sic) guy is. So who has a better claim? I don't know and don't care because Blaise has never made that an issue or a claim. In my opinion, there have been many assumptions made about Blaise based on bad information.

    Here is another direct quote from Blaise on his discussion board concerning Nagondzog. It is dated 03/20/05.

    "Nagondzog is an old Apache word for "warfare", military operations -- either a raid (stealth, no contact desired) or a war party (looking for contact w\the enemy).

    As far as I can figure, there is NO codified, traditional Native American "martial arts" out there. Period. I am Apache and have lived w\my relatives & friends on several reservations for 20 years now (as of this writing). I have access to knowledge & elders that most "outsiders" do not. I have found nothing remotely close to what most think of as a "martial art".

    In Native American warcraft, the individual warrior learned the basic life skills. How to survive, on his own if need be, in any environment. These basic skills, when employed in a warfare role, led to such warchiefs as Cochise, Juh, Mangas Coloradas, Geronimo, Nana (Apaches), as well as other greats -- Crazy Horse, Dull Knife, Chief Joseph, Red Cloud, etc.

    What I learned from my Grandfathers is simple, basic Apache life skills. I learned all the pros & cons of a particular area of operations -- Apacheland. How I utilize these skills in a hunting or warcraft "situation" will dictate my worthiness as a hunter\warrior. Simple.

    I did learn "Besh N'de" -- Apache knifing. It wasn't some "style" handed down from warrior to warrior, etc. Grandpa Buzzard (Canyon Z. Quintero), one of my main teachers, showed me (along w\a couple other elders) some of the knife "moves" they had in their repertoire. Old Buzzard was a combat vet. He did 18 months in Korea. He killed many N.Koreans & Red Chinese, sometimes with his bayonet (when his position would be overrun & he was out of ammo.) Same goes w\Harold Kinton, a medicine man who is also a Vietnam vet and had similar experiences vs. NVA regulars and the occassional VC. These men were shown a couple of knife techniques from their elder male relatives before each went to war. This is SOP for any Apache leaving the rez for a war. There is a war dance and a war blessing. So far, (and they've been doing this since WW2) no Apache soldier who attended has ever gotten killed in combat! Homer Beatty, whose specialty is war blessings, gave me mine. Steve Doyle was there as my second in this ceremony.

    The concepts I was given and the training methods I was taught are valid and are most definitely Apache in thought and in execution. I hope to put this knowledge on film in the near future.

    To an Apache, a knife is viewed as a must-have TOOL! I can build a shelter, start a fire, make clothes, clean & dress game, make other tools or weapons (bow, arrows, lance, warclub) with my knife. It can also be employed as a last ditch WEAPON too. Or, if I have no supressed weapons, the knife is great for silent sentry neutralizations.

    The primary weapon for the Apache warrior in Nagondzog was a Winchester or Sharps, etc. Nowadays, an M-4 is preferred.

    Hope this sheds a little more light on the Apache knife combatives that we in Yashai warcraft practice.

    Blaise Loong"
  8. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2006 11:12pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay Celtic Sword, here is the section by Shazaaya that concerns your friend, any comments?

    "I am Niit'ahende Band Mescalero Apache and was raised with this "Martial Art" Blaise calls Apache guerilla warfare. I can tell you that it has never died and if Blaise wants to teach it to nonnatives he's going to run into the same problem Bruce Lee did when he taught Kung Fu to non Chinese. If you ask any Apache about this they will likely reinforce your belief that our warrior traditions are Dead or, better, ask you "What do we need those things for; are we about to be attacked or something?" The bottom line is that it is neglected out of lack of necessity not dead.

    The Archaic methods exist only as historical reference, and for the purpose of improvised weapons development, as times have changed. Most people are taught that us Apache Stopped fighting in 1886; LOL no, the last of us freedom fighters continued fighting out of the Apache Stronghold in the Sierra Madre until 1935. I know this first hand because my Great Grandfather is the Apache Kid (San Carlos Apache), and Known to my family as Libredo Sanchez.

    If you look at the pictures of our people during the 1800s, you will see a radical change in our armorment. We went from shields, war clubs, spears, and Machetes, to Rifles and Pistols. Adaption is vital to the Apache Warrior tradition. We don't hold on to things nostalgically.

    Blaise's site says:

    "Being part Chiricahua Apache, Blaise sought out his relatives on the San Carlos and FortApache Indian reservations in South Eastern Arizona..."

    Blaise allows himself to be called "Part Chiricahua Apache,"we do not call our selves "Part." When I acknowledge my Scottish blood, I say "I am Niit'ahende Band Mescalero Apache/ Clan Macpherson Alba." Note that there are no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

    After proving himself worthy to the elders, the old Grandfathers (since 1985) have meticulously trained Blaise in 3 areas : hunting and survival, Nagondzog -- the uniquely Apache brand of guerrilla warfare, made famous by such Warchiefs as Geronimo and Cochise,...

    Blaise dose show some knowledge of the Apache Language; how ever he dose not appear to grasp our concepts within the context of Apache Culture. "Nagondzog" dose appear to be San Carlos Apache, or other Western Apache dialect, which is were he claims to have learned Warrior Ways. By the way Cochise is Famous as a Diplomat, not a famous war leader. When they say "...the uniquely Apache brand of guerrilla warfare..." this is rather hokey: One can learn elements of Apache warfare from the United States Special Forces; for those of you unfamiliar with the History of the Special Forces, prior to being called this they were known as "The U.S. Army Indian Scouts." To this day the Special Forces Crest bears the Crossed Arrows emblem of the U.S. Army Indian Scouts. I know because I was a Chaplin's Assistant with the 19th Special Forces Group. Funny thing really; they were freaked out by all the weapons I hid on my person when ever we went to the field. They used to joke that I was a mobile Weapons Room. LOL (In the Special Forces, a big part of being a Chaplin's Assistant is being his body Guard. My Orders on this "The Chaplin doesnt die unless you die first in defence of him. If he dies and you don't, you will be Court Marshaled.")

    ...and Diyin, the Apache realm of supernatural Power."

    Here Blaise is allowing himself to be called a Medicine Man: "Diyin" Is Chiricahua for a Medicine Man, it is not the "Apache realm of supernatural power." In the Dialect he claims this would be "Diyi." The "n" personifies this to mean Medicine Person (we have no gender pronouns). A person not knowledgeable of Apache Languages could get this confused by reading the writings of Anthropologist Eve Ball.

    What Blaise Loong has going for him and against him:

    Many of our methods resemble Kung Fu, such as spear methods (We are genetically related to Tibetans), our foot work is more similar to Bujinkan Ninjitsu (Watch Traditional Dancers at Powwow and Eagle Dancers and compare this with the stealth methods taught by Ninjitsu). The "Besh" (Knife) is a primary weapon, but I do not see Blaise refer to the Tse'aal (Stone Carrier) which is also a Traditional Primary Weapon; it is a rawhide equivalent of the Flail (Mace and Chain), and is as complex a weapon as the Nunchaku.

    He is right when he says that our Warrior Traditions are formless and informal, many of our attitudes are actually shared by the Celts, a leader keeps discipline by being a competent leader, if he fails at this he gets impeached. My problem here is that he dose not refer to the Cosmological elements of our traditions which are important to understanding the warrior Path, anyone who knows anything about our Traditions knows that every element of our Culture works like a windows program, as everything is interrelated to everything else. Blaise is claiming to have a large amount of technical Knowledge here (Can you say the equivalent of a PH.D. in Military Science?)

    What Blaise Loong has going against him:

    I was a Traditional (Shield) Dancer in the California Powwow Circuit from 1989-1995 and "Traditional Apache Shield Dancers" are rare. Because of this we grouped together and there were all of five of us in Northern California and Three in Southern California; I never heard of Blaise Loong during this time. Dancing and Running are primary physical activities in Apache Warrior Ways.

    Blaise has not responded to a very friendly email I sent him when I found him on a search for others involved in Apache Warrior Ways. In that email I gave him my Credentials and offered to work with him and share knowledge. I can tell you first hand that any Apache who carries this Medicine is eager for company, we are rare due to the fact that there is not much use for War Medicine when we are not at war.
    Native American Indian Civilizations are based on community, not being Rambo, this includes Warrior Ways. Blaise fails to address the importance of community and patriotism, the Monster Cycle of the Twin Warrior Gods, Preparation and Cleansing, and "The Four Laws," our equivalent of the Bushido Code."
  9. CelticSword is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2006 11:39pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Warcraft

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Claus
    Okay Celtic Sword, here is the section by Shazaaya that concerns your friend, any comments?
    1. One question at a time please

    2. What is your specific question concerning Blaise.

    3. Qualification. My answers come with the understanding that, I am not Blaise and it is possible that I can make a mistake in my answers to your questions. That is why I have been using his direct quotes so I will not misquote or misguide.

    4. As fas as any claims that Shazaaya is making about himself, I don't know the guy or anything about him.
  10. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/17/2006 12:45am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Obviously Celtic Sword, Blaise could cure this defect by dictating an answer through yourself I'll break this down into questions.


    "I am Niit'ahende Band Mescalero Apache and was raised with this "Martial Art" Blaise calls Apache guerilla warfare. I can tell you that it has never died and if Blaise wants to teach it to nonnatives he's going to run into the same problem Bruce Lee did when he taught Kung Fu to non Chinese. If you ask any Apache about this they will likely reinforce your belief that our warrior traditions are Dead or, better, ask you "What do we need those things for; are we about to be attacked or something?" The bottom line is that it is neglected out of lack of necessity not dead.
    1) Does Blaise have any disagreements with this assertion concerning how Apache arts are presented to non-Indians?

    The Archaic methods exist only as historical reference, and for the purpose of improvised weapons development, as times have changed. Most people are taught that us Apache Stopped fighting in 1886; LOL no, the last of us freedom fighters continued fighting out of the Apache Stronghold in the Sierra Madre until 1935. I know this first hand because my Great Grandfather is the Apache Kid (San Carlos Apache), and Known to my family as Libredo Sanchez.
    2) Does Blaise have a position on this rather interesting historical claim involving Apache resistance?

    If you look at the pictures of our people during the 1800s, you will see a radical change in our armorment. We went from shields, war clubs, spears, and Machetes, to Rifles and Pistols. Adaption is vital to the Apache Warrior tradition. We don't hold on to things nostalgically.
    3) Does Blaise agree that Apache's do not hand onto martial traditions nostalgically?

    Blaise's site says:

    "Being part Chiricahua Apache, Blaise sought out his relatives on the San Carlos and FortApache Indian reservations in South Eastern Arizona..."

    Blaise allows himself to be called "Part Chiricahua Apache,"we do not call our selves "Part." When I acknowledge my Scottish blood, I say "I am Niit'ahende Band Mescalero Apache/ Clan Macpherson Alba." Note that there are no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
    4) The writer says that Blaise uses incorrect terminology to describe himself. Or uses terminology that an Apache would not use. What is his response?

    After proving himself worthy to the elders, the old Grandfathers (since 1985) have meticulously trained Blaise in 3 areas : hunting and survival, Nagondzog -- the uniquely Apache brand of guerrilla warfare, made famous by such Warchiefs as Geronimo and Cochise,...

    Blaise does show some knowledge of the Apache Language; how ever he does not appear to grasp our concepts within the context of Apache Culture. "Nagondzog" dose appear to be San Carlos Apache, or other Western Apache dialect, which is were he claims to have learned Warrior Ways. By the way Cochise is Famous as a Diplomat, not a famous war leader. When they say "...the uniquely Apache brand of guerrilla warfare..." this is rather hokey: One can learn elements of Apache warfare from the United States Special Forces; for those of you unfamiliar with the History of the Special Forces, prior to being called this they were known as "The U.S. Army Indian Scouts." To this day the Special Forces Crest bears the Crossed Arrows emblem of the U.S. Army Indian Scouts. I know because I was a Chaplin's Assistant with the 19th Special Forces Group. Funny thing really; they were freaked out by all the weapons I hid on my person when ever we went to the field. They used to joke that I was a mobile Weapons Room. LOL (In the Special Forces, a big part of being a Chaplin's Assistant is being his body Guard. My Orders on this "The Chaplin doesnt die unless you die first in defence of him. If he dies and you don't, you will be Court Marshaled.")
    5) The writer asserts that Blaise does not grasp concepts withing the context of Apache culture. What is Blaise's response.

    6) Is "Nargondoz" a word found in San Carlos Apache, or other Western Apache dialect?

    7) Does Blaise agree or disagree that "Cochise is Famous as a Diplomat, not a famous war leader." and therefor not a developer of a particular brand of guerilla warfare."

    8) As a former soldier yourself, are the following contentions accurate?

    a) "One can learn elements of Apache warfare from the United States Special Forces;"

    b) Is there any actual link between the indian scouts and the American Special Forces?

    c) To this day the Special Forces Crest bears the Crossed Arrows emblem of the U.S. Army Indian Scouts.

    d) That there is a 19th Special Forces Group. And that such a group would have a chaplan.

    ...and Diyin, the Apache realm of supernatural Power."

    Here Blaise is allowing himself to be called a Medicine Man: "Diyin" Is Chiricahua for a Medicine Man, it is not the "Apache realm of supernatural power." In the Dialect he claims this would be "Diyi." The "n" personifies this to mean Medicine Person (we have no gender pronouns). A person not knowledgeable of Apache Languages could get this confused by reading the writings of Anthropologist Eve Ball.
    9) The writer asserts that Blaise misuses the word Diyin and demonstrates that he does not have actual knowledge of the Apache Languages.

    What Blaise Loong has going for him and against him:

    Many of our methods resemble Kung Fu, such as spear methods (We are genetically related to Tibetans), our foot work is more similar to Bujinkan Ninjitsu (Watch Traditional Dancers at Powwow and Eagle Dancers and compare this with the stealth methods taught by Ninjitsu). The "Besh" (Knife) is a primary weapon, but I do not see Blaise refer to the Tse'aal (Stone Carrier) which is also a Traditional Primary Weapon; it is a rawhide equivalent of the Flail (Mace and Chain), and is as complex a weapon as the Nunchaku.
    10) Is the author accurate that Blaise does not seem to know about the Tse'aal. Is the Tse'aal an Apache weapon as the author asserts. Secondly if it is why did Blaise not mention it?

    He is right when he says that our Warrior Traditions are formless and informal, many of our attitudes are actually shared by the Celts, a leader keeps discipline by being a competent leader, if he fails at this he gets impeached. My problem here is that he dose not refer to the Cosmological elements of our traditions which are important to understanding the warrior Path, anyone who knows anything about our Traditions knows that every element of our Culture works like a windows program, as everything is interrelated to everything else. Blaise is claiming to have a large amount of technical Knowledge here (Can you say the equivalent of a PH.D. in Military Science?)
    11) Does Blaise have an explaination for why he does not discuss Cosmological elements of Apache traditions or does he think the author is wrong in this assertion.

    What Blaise Loong has going against him:

    I was a Traditional (Shield) Dancer in the California Powwow Circuit from 1989-1995 and "Traditional Apache Shield Dancers" are rare. Because of this we grouped together and there were all of five of us in Northern California and Three in Southern California; I never heard of Blaise Loong during this time. Dancing and Running are primary physical activities in Apache Warrior Ways.
    12) Does Blaise have an explaination why he was unknown among this group of Apache Shield Dancers?

    Blaise has not responded to a very friendly email I sent him when I found him on a search for others involved in Apache Warrior Ways. In that email I gave him my Credentials and offered to work with him and share knowledge. I can tell you first hand that any Apache who carries this Medicine is eager for company, we are rare due to the fact that there is not much use for War Medicine when we are not at war.
    Native American Indian Civilizations are based on community, not being Rambo, this includes Warrior Ways. Blaise fails to address the importance of community and patriotism, the Monster Cycle of the Twin Warrior Gods, Preparation and Cleansing, and "The Four Laws," our equivalent of the Bushido Code."
    13) Does Blaise have an explaination why he decided not to respond to this guy's e-mail?
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