I don't think Atemi as you're thinking of it was ever allowed in competition. Though there was probably more emphasis on learning it in general back in the day.
Originally Posted by roly
I think Mr. Jones might have been thinking of Atemi along the lines of "Atemi Waza" as seen in Tomiki Aikido. They're not real Atemi like a punch or a kick but more along the lines of a hard push with your body/hands. Those may have been legal at some very early time but obviously no one in Judo nowadays really practices them.
And perhaps Kano took the leglocks out because the Olympic committe deemed them too dangerous after hearing about the rate of injury due to them? Whatever the case, most Judoka don't learn these either to a great extent if at all, just like Atemi.
Actually, my first Judo sensei was very old school and made us learn kata and illegal moves right from the beginning. But we were most definitely not a competition oriented school.
I remember people were actively training in many techniques that I didn't know were illegal at the time. It wasn't until the internet became highly useable that I realized that I couldn't do neck cranks, leglocks, and kani basami in competition.
No, Mr. Jones was thinking about these atemi.
Originally Posted by RaiNnyX4
Railynx trying to second guess me and telling me things I already know.
As far as wrestling throws/takedowns in competition go you really have to be careful about grabbing the legs/pants. Five seconds is pretty generous and you won't get it,. If you drop and grab the leg you need to immediately start moving your opponent or you'll get penalized. It's good to modify your wrestling double to a higher amplitude throw by grabbing the legs about mid-thigh and throwing your opponent up and out rather than buckling their knees. Takes a bit more power but if you use your legs by running forward while you're lifting it's not as hard as it seems. That used to be my bread and butter throw and it works really, really well. Pissed a lot of the old school guys off though but I didn't really care.
This is cut and pasted directly from the IJF website regarding osaekomi waza. IJF Referee rules.
Striking just has never been part of competition. I think we are all glad for that cause going home limping after a good prectice is enough with out 2 black eyes :).
Virtually any takedown that doesn't present a danger to either competitor is acceptable. Banned techinques are the result of years of competition and injury reports observed by the IJF. The techniques that were injuring players the most are banned. Just for the simple purpose of protecting both players from injury. Thats the only purpose for banned techniques not because it was so good that one could stop it. It was just so good at injuring others when done correctly or incorrectly.
26. Osaekomi-waza The Referee shall announce Osaekomi when in his opinion the applied technique corresponds with the following criteria:
(a) The contestant being held must be controlled by his opponent and must have his back, both shoulders or one shoulder in contact with the Tatami. (b) The control can be made from the side, from the rear or from on top. (c) The contestant applying the hold must not have his leg(s) or body controlled by his opponent's legs.
(d) At least one contestant must have some part of his body touching the contest area. (e) The contestant applying the hold must have his body in either the Kesa or the Shiho position, i.e. similar to the techniques Kesa-gatame or Kami-shiho-gatame.
wait, i know nothing about judo so can you explain to me why the old school judo guys frown on wrestling shots and takedowns? oh... and so you can only hold on to another judo guy's pants for five seconds?
think a lot of judo throws are best performed with an upright posture, so you can get some majorly fast rotation and throw someone as hard and fast as possible.
wait, i know nothing about judo so can you explain to me why the old school judo guys frown on wrestling shots and takedowns?
if you're crouched over, fishing for legs, you won't get those particular throws as easily, or at least won't be in as good of a position for them.
you will get other throws, however, like wrestling takedowns and what not. that's just not as "judo" as some other throws. judo has a certain look and certain favored techniques as opposed to wrestling.
for this reason i think old school judo guys tend to prefer the old school, upright judo throws.
just watch the essence of judo with kyuzo mifune, you'll see:
Originally Posted by leere_form
You hit that one right on the head. Old school guys want the technique to look clean and pretty. This is the art form aspect of Judo that many tend to forget about. The newer "kids" are just worried about effectiveness. Like one Coach told me, "If he lands on his back its Judo." You can get caught up in all that BS if you want to I for one think that there is a time and place for both. If its me and my buds just doing some light sparring then I am looking for the smooth pretty stuff. If its me and the buys training for a tourney then all bets are off and you better protect yourself. (I dont compete anymore so I am official old school now , lol). I watched a Swedish wrestler/Judo in a black belt division smoke everyone with single leg picks. They were gourgeous he would throw them for a full score, Ippon, most of the time. After doing some research I found them in the Judo skill sets listed as legitmate Judo throws. I there is one in that video link of Mifune doing a single leg pick. (BTW I am intentioally not using Japanese terms due to the variety of people that may read this). After that we taught one of our female player a version of a single leg pick we termed the "sack of meat" cause she threw the dam thing so hard she would knock girls out with it. She went on to be a high ranked female player in the US that year.
The five second rule in Judo. This applies to any non standard grip you have on your opponet. Standard being one hand on a sleeve and the other hand on the opposite lapel. Some minor variations are considered standard. The pants leg falls into this catagory. The reason behind this is action. During the contest the purpose is to generate attacks. The rules encourage this. Holding the pants leg with no intention of attacking is an stalling tactic to keep your opponent from attacking you. Holding the belt, pants and other non standard grips generate an advantage for the person doing them and they should capitalize on them as fast as they can. This is not to discourage the grip but to encourage attacks. Many people take a negative approach to the rules while others don't.
Much like in Pride were you are issued a yellow card for lack of action such is the same in Judo. The person is given a penalty their opponent if given a point and if it continues then you will lose the match on penalties., takes 4 total penalties for a DQ.
OMFG, thats exactally the phrase I used for my single leg pick, Kochikitaioshi. I used it so much that I was banned from throwing it in practice unless we was getting ready for a tournament.
Originally Posted by Judobum
Everyone is right on about the attitude against wrestling style takedowns. They were frowned upon as "not really judo" and not as pretty. Stylistically this is true but my morote was pretty impressive most of the time since I'd typically have my opponent's feet about three feet off the ground when I hit it right.
The other thing that made my morote a bit on the ugly side was my running approach to it. I'd grab the legs and run forwards while the opponent tried to sprawl out. When I'd hit the red mat I'd fall forwards but keep my toes in bounds. Now the rules then were that as long as any part of me was still in bounds, the throw counted. Usually when people saw we were in the red they would let up and I'd throw them easier. One time I actually threw my opponent halfway onto the next mat because the areas were so close together. It was funny because the ref just kind of looked down and saw my toes were still in while we're sprawled that far off our on mat, shrugged and called ippon.
that is awesome. what a tenacious win. :icon_chee
It was funny because the ref just kind of looked down and saw my toes were still in while we're sprawled that far off our on mat, shrugged and called ippon.
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