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  1. thomaspaine is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2006 6:54am


     Style: No-Gi BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just watched Stephen Kesting's "Dynamic Knee Bars" video and it was the greatest thing I've ever seen. It really broke down the kneebar into it's basic components in a way I haven't seen before. I'm pretty sure the reason I wasn't getting enough leverage before was because my legs were too straight.

    As demonstrated by Stephen Kesting for what NOT to do (ie, what I've been doing):



    and two good ways to lock your legs:





    The heel hook is still a mystery to me though. Most of the guys I do heel hooks on know what a good heel hook feels like, so I don't think it's a problem that they're just too macho to tap. I'm pretty sure I'm just not generating enough force to implement the submission. I'll try and post some pics later today when my roommate gets home.
  2. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
    Roidie McDouchebag's Avatar

    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2006 7:16am

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sounds like you aren't bending the knee enough when you go for it, then. Also, try to roll his knee to the mat so he can't roll away from it. Really though, there must be something you're doing flat out wrong because the heel hook is far from a power-intensive submission.
  3. GoldenJonas is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2006 10:59am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by roly
    quick question
    if you arent getting enough force to make them tap, are you generating enough force for a potential break/dislocation?? or are they being dangerous and simply not tapping when they should
    You, as the guy applying the submission, SHOULD know whether you have the sub correctly locked or not. IF YOU DON'T KNOW THIS YOU SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTING THE SUB.

    Why? because in the case of a kneebar and more so the heel hook, the answer to your question is yes. With these two particular subs you can go from "hey, I can roll out of this" to "****!! Did I just roll onto a pile of potato chips or was that my ACL tearing?" in a matter of seconds. In all of the heel hooks I have done and/or experienced there is no pain. There is just a feeling of extreme pressure and pulling on the knee joint. The same thing with the kneebar. Not so much pain, but a extreme feeling of pressure and a conscious realization that "hey, my leg is not built to go that way."

    You, as the person applying the sub, ANY SUB, MUST know when to either a) let it go because the guy you are applying it on is refusing to tap, or b) let it go because you don't have it locked correctly. Both of these, as well as the knowledge of when to tap, only come from mat time.

    But, IMO, kneebars, heel hooks, and even arm bars, are the most dangerous as there is little play between recognition of pain and dibilitating injury to the joint or ligaments.

    Oh, and its...KNEEBAHHHHH!!!!
  4. saku39 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2006 11:57am


     Style: taido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i would geuss that when you are turning the heel hook the whole foot/ankle/lower leg/knee assembly is moving together. Like cracky alluded to, you need to isolate the different segments of the leg. Clamp down on the foot between your arm and body, isolate the lower leg from the hip using your legs and the ground.

    Also, try using a bicep curling motion (as if you were trying to lift the heel towards your head) with the arm that has hooked the ankle, and create the rotational force by turning your shoulders.
  5. Zankou is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2006 10:01pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I repeat my skepticism about the heel hook. A post saying that you can't generate enough force to finish the heel hook scares the fvck out of me. The problem with the heel hook is always trying NOT to finish it too hard. Pleeeeaaassseeee don't sit there trying to apply more and more force.
  6. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2006 11:12pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by saku39
    i would geuss that when you are turning the heel hook the whole foot/ankle/lower leg/knee assembly is moving together. Like cracky alluded to, you need to isolate the different segments of the leg. Clamp down on the foot between your arm and body, isolate the lower leg from the hip using your legs and the ground.

    Also, try using a bicep curling motion (as if you were trying to lift the heel towards your head) with the arm that has hooked the ankle, and create the rotational force by turning your shoulders.


    I'm not sure if I can agree with you on this one dude. You tend to get the wrong leverage this way.
  7. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2006 11:15pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zankou
    I repeat my skepticism about the heel hook. A post saying that you can't generate enough force to finish the heel hook scares the fvck out of me. The problem with the heel hook is always trying NOT to finish it too hard. Pleeeeaaassseeee don't sit there trying to apply more and more force.
    I've fucked up a guys leg with a heel hook, one of my fighters tore a guys knee up during a mma competition and tore my knee 5 years ago. The heel hook works and works well.
  8. saku39 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2006 10:07am


     Style: taido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega
    I'm not sure if I can agree with you on this one dude. You tend to get the wrong leverage this way.
    ok, i assume you are talking about lifting the ankle with your bicep. I've never had a problem doing it this way, but what alterations would you advise? The same motion, just without the curling action?
  9. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2006 11:56am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by saku39
    ok, i assume you are talking about lifting the ankle with your bicep. I've never had a problem doing it this way, but what alterations would you advise? The same motion, just without the curling action?
    I agree with Omega's criticism here. For the heel hook your arms should not move at all once you have the gable grip (or whatever grip your comfortable with) behind the person's heel and their instep is secured in your arm pit. You should remain tight; shoulders pinched in, gable tight, both arms tight into your body and clenched at about 90 degree angle each (give or take a bit for you body build). With the opponents leg bent and secured buy wrapping your leg around and staying tight to the guys ass the lock is applied by looking over your far shoulder and arching your back a bit, NOT by performing a "bicep curl motion".

    At least this is how I was taught and this is how I do it.
  10. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2006 12:30pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJonas
    I agree with Omega's criticism here. For the heel hook your arms should not move at all once you have the gable grip (or whatever grip your comfortable with) behind the person's heel and their instep is secured in your arm pit. You should remain tight; shoulders pinched in, gable tight, both arms tight into your body and clenched at about 90 degree angle each (give or take a bit for you body build). With the opponents leg bent and secured buy wrapping your leg around and staying tight to the guys ass the lock is applied by looking over your far shoulder and arching your back a bit, NOT by performing a "bicep curl motion".

    At least this is how I was taught and this is how I do it.
    What he said, except I don't arch my back. Go over my other post Saku and you'll see what I mean.
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