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  1. thomaspaine is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2006 10:52pm


     Style: No-Gi BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Finishing kneebars and heelhooks

    This is really two seperate questions, but they're kind of related I guess. I should throw out the disclaimer that I'm a blue belt and am pretty careful when doing leglocks while rolling. I also hit 90% of my leglocks from the bottom.

    The first problem is that when I'm going for a kneebar, I typically have a lot of trouble finishing. It's not that the guy is twisting out or anything, because I lock it down pretty tight, the problem is that when I'm arching back it just doesn't seem to apply enough force to make the guy tap. When I do the kneebar I usually triangle my legs around the thigh to keep the guy from pulling out, then grab the heel close to my chest/face and arch back. I'm wondering if maybe my hips are too far up the leg (up as in, close to his hips) and that's what I'm not getting enough leverage. I also watched the Shogun vs. Randleman fight and noticed that Shogun finished the kneebar by overhooking the calf and arching back, which I haven't really seen before and I was wondering what the pros and cons of finishing that way were.

    My second problem is on finishing heel hooks. I've been shown two different ways to finish the heel hook, and neither seem to work for me. For this, assume I'm doing the heel hook on my left side.
    1) I put my left foot on his hip, right foot under his butt, squeeze my knees together, arch my back and rotate. This way doesn't feel as tight though and the guy can just roll, so the second way I was shown was:
    2) Triangle the left leg and with your right foot hook your opponent's right leg to keep him from rolling. Finish the same as above. Sorry for the lack of pictures...it's hard to explain but hopefully you guys know what I'm talking about (EDIT: I actually found a picture of this on lockflow.com http://www.lockflow.com/article_view.php?id=1723) This way feels a lot tighter, but on both of these when I go to finish, I again don't feel like I have the leverage to get a tap. Especially with #2, it doesn't seem like I'm isolating the knee because I'm triangling the thigh. If I do get a tap, I'm told that the pressure is in the ankle/foot and not the knee. So, what are your thoughts on finishing the heel hook?
    Last edited by thomaspaine; 11/26/2006 11:02pm at .
  2. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/27/2006 12:25am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Finishing the kneebar with an overhook will certainly tighten it up, but that additional leverage is something you should apply slowly for safety reasons. I don't really have an answer to the heel hook question that I'd feel comfortable calling "good advice".
  3. Zankou is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2006 3:17pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hooking the leg behind your armpit is an excellent way of increasing the force of a kneebar. That said, you shouldn't be having that much problem finishing them off in practice with the regular way ... are you making sure to smash the heel to your chest before arching, or are you just pulling the foot towards yourself? You should be moving your upper body towards the foot before arching, not the reverse.
  4. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2006 3:22pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kneebar leverage is usually lost because most associate the kneebar with the same leverage as the armbar. This is only half the battle. In order to get the knee bar you've got to be deeeep. Normally a person's instep needs to be on your shoulder, then you have to fully isolate the leg by clamping your legs (like the armbar) and then gripping the person with the crook of your elbow rather than your hands. You should see a significant improvement if you do so.
  5. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2006 3:28pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Heelhook: You might be dealing with people who don't understand the dangers of a heel hook. The way they show on lockflow is exactly how I teach it. Usually I grab the knee for extra control. You don't really arch on a heel hook, you rotate. When you go to grip the heel look right at it (sounds wierd but look right at the heel), then start to rotate you upper body away from that position bring the heel with you. Be slow with this dude you can end up putting people in a lot of pain if they don't know what to expect or if they roll the wrong way. Also make sure his leg is bent the entire time, some people straighten it out and think they're getting the same leverage.
  6. Zankou is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2006 4:26pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, good point. Let me add that if people aren't tapping to your heelhook, don't be a "heelhook hero" who cranks until there is damage done. The heelhook often doesn't hurt much until it is too late --- that's one reason why it is so dangerous to roll with, it doesn't fit in the usual "crank till the pain" sub. Cranking until the pain is often already too far with the heelhook, what you need is for both guys to understand when the sub is locked enough.
  7. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2006 8:39pm

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If someone isn't tapping to the heelhook, just tell them "Tap or snap" when you've got it locked on.
  8. roly is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2006 8:39pm


     Style: judo, karate, jap jj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    quick question
    if you arent getting enough force to make them tap, are you generating enough force for a potential break/dislocation?? or are they being dangerous and simply not tapping when they should

    the point of submissions is to learn how to actually dismantle the human body, not "make enough pain to make them tap"

    in a perfect world, you do not submit from the pain, you submit because you dont want a visit to the hospital
  9. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/27/2006 9:06pm

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's why I tap when I get heelhooked, if I know it's on, I tap. Usually I do feel it, but not the same way I feel other submissions. I just feel stress, not pain, in my knee and know what will happen if I don't tap.
  10. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2006 10:37pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracky McSlugHoot
    That's why I tap when I get heelhooked, if I know it's on, I tap. Usually I do feel it, but not the same way I feel other submissions. I just feel stress, not pain, in my knee and know what will happen if I don't tap.

    I concur *high five.:needpics:
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