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  1. #1

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    Aliveness Vs Sports training methodology

    So, the first time I came across this term "aliveness" was here on bullshido. I was talking to some friends about it (new to them too), and we all came to wonder if it was the same thing as sports training methodology (i.e. the common methods employed in sports to train and develop competition athletes) applied to martial arts. I've read many of the posts here regarding aliveness and searched over the internet (sadly, I don't have a Barnes & Noble anywhere around to deepen the search) and, even though I tend to think they are more or less the same, I wanted to ask those of you who are more acquainted with the term if there's something more to it?.

  2. #2
    Torakaka's Avatar
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    yeah, it's basically sports training repackaged with a tidy new word.
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm

  3. #3
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    Not sure if this is the right section for it, but I'll take a crack at this before its moved.

    Aliveness is not the same as sports training, but sports training relies on aliveness. It's like the "not all Germans are Nazi's, but all Nazi's are German" line... Aliveness is Germany, and Sports fighters are Nazis (did I just lose the thread? Dammit!).

    The concept of Aliveness is to progressively add resistance to your repertoire of techniques to pressure test them and gain ability. Whether those techniques be striking with hands or feet, grappling submissions, clinching takedowns, or even weapons training, "live"drilling, integrating, and sparring are all necessary.

    With Sports training, although "Aliveness" is necessary, only those techniques or tools necessary to win the given competition or sport are required. In Muay Thai, you have no need to learn how to defend a triangle, and in Judo perfecting your inside thigh kicks is quite unnecessary. So although sports training requires "aliveness" it is not aliveness in itself.

    I suggest youtube searching for Matt Thorntons video and perhaps reading some articles at onedragon.com and the SBG site.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    yeah, it's basically sports training repackaged with a tidy new word.
    There I go trying to type a well thought out response, and you go with that.....feh
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee


  5. #5
    Torakaka's Avatar
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    you're overthinking this crap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    you're overthinking this crap.
    Just like a sportfighter to take such a simplistic view of the beauty and art of two humans engaged in barehanded mortal combat. You don't know what you're missing out on. To use overly intellectual verbiage to make yourself appear more knowledgeable than you really are....that is the true meaning of "art" in martial arts.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee


  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Just like a sportfighter to take such a simplistic view of the beauty and art of two humans engaged in barehanded mortal combat. You don't know what you're missing out on. To use overly intellectual verbiage to make yourself appear more knowledgeable than you really are....that is the true meaning of "art" in martial arts.
    People think the art Ben Cole has mastered is Taijitsu (well not really), but the has really mastered this art.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    yeah, it's basically sports training repackaged with a tidy new word.
    I was thinking just about the same but I really didn't want to be the one to say it. Besides, I also found an interesting phenomenon that tended to defy my generalization, that is, there are martial arts considered sports and yet not considered "alive" (e.g. TKD), which made think that maybe there is a certain amount of perceived effectiveness related to this concept and not so much to sports training methodology, but again, these are MA and not baseball so, maybe is just inherent to that "effectiveness" fact and not to the aliveness concept, maybe is just a thing of this particular MA (the exception to the rule???). Although (and to answer my own question) in non-combat sports you also have to be effective, it's just effectiveness in another way.

    P.S to everyone: Please, I'm not trying to turn this into a "TKD sucks" threat, thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    The concept of Aliveness is to progressively add resistance to your repertoire of techniques to pressure test them and gain ability. Whether those techniques be striking with hands or feet, grappling submissions, clinching takedowns, or even weapons training, "live"drilling, integrating, and sparring are all necessary...
    So far this is what I had understood, in fact, I think you could extend those same words on the first paragraph to non-combat sports (like basketball, football, swimming...) and it still would apply.


    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    ...With Sports training, although "Aliveness" is necessary, only those techniques or tools necessary to win the given competition or sport are required. In Muay Thai, you have no need to learn how to defend a triangle, and in Judo perfecting your inside thigh kicks is quite unnecessary. So although sports training requires "aliveness" it is not aliveness in itself...
    Here is where I' m not quite sure if I understand, and if I do, I don't agree. What I get here is, taking your own example, that Muay Thai fighters don't learn how to grapple because they don't need it to win their type of competition, Judoka don't learn how to kick & strike for the very same reason, since they have those weaknesses they are only sports but not alive???. From which derives another question, are only MMA (which cover those weaknesses) the only MA alive?.

    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    ...I suggest youtube searching for Matt Thorntons video and perhaps reading some articles at onedragon.com and the SBG site.
    I've already seen some of his videos, and because he looked more like my swim team coach than a martial arts instructor I started to have these crazy ideas. :icon_lol:
    I'll see the page after I finish this post. Thanks.

  9. #9
    i keep tryin to spar, but nothin happens! supporting member

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    What I get here is, taking your own example, that Muay Thai fighters don't learn how to grapple because they don't need it to win their type of competition, Judoka don't learn how to kick & strike for the very same reason, since they have those weaknesses they are only sports but not alive???
    huh?

    proper judo (or mt, etc) is 'alive' because every single technique used under the ruleset is trained in an 'alive' manner. whether or not that ruleset covers striking, grappling, takedowns, tea ceremony or trampolines doesn't (directly) bear on whether or not the training is "alive."

    there are martial arts considered sports and yet not considered "alive" (e.g. TKD), which made think that maybe there is a certain amount of perceived effectiveness related to this concept and not so much to sports training methodology
    you need to differentiate between tkd as in "we kick the air and do poomse, KIYAP!" and "we are a competitive sport tkd school." the former is generally dead training, and the latter is usually quite 'alive.' suckitude does not preclude 'aliveness.'

  10. #10
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Aliveness is just a nice advertising gimmick, but actually delivers. There's one or two matt thornton videos floating around here where he explains it's nothing new, he's just putting his own spin on it.

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