W. Hock Hochheim

**Don Gwinn** · Posted On: 11/28/2006 10:19pm

Hoo boy . . . . I just read this.

So that PM about AR's claims was referencing Hock's forum? That makes more sense. I searched for that stuff at Bullshido, but of course I didn't find it.

Let's clear up a couple of things before going forward:

1. I've never heard of Gabe Suarez falsifying police reports about shootings. I've heard it alleged (I believe by Denny Hansen, police and SWAT veteran and editor of SWAT Magazine) that Suarez now claims to have been involved in several "officer-involved shootings in the line of duty" and yet, Denny says, he knows of none. He does know of several shootings of dogs for various reasons, and theorized that Suarez is expanding those into more than they were to inflate his record because so many shooters think if an instructor never parachuted into the Congo to kill Chicoms and eliminate rogue elements of the French Foreign Legion then he must not be worth learning from.
If that sounds like very tenuous hearsay, that's because it is. It's more or less gossip. If it's going to be presented as "Don Gwinn says Suarez faked police reports of officer shootings" then I'm sorry I ever posted it.

2. I have not taken a class from Hock, but I did take an entry-level knife course from a certified instructor. It sucked. The defenses were pretty unrealistic, and despite the fact that there were only two students and we had several sparring knives from which to choose, we never did anything at so much as one-quarter speed, much less sparring of any kind. That's over the course of four hours.
The only technique I remember involved catching a midline stab with both hands on the attacker's wrist, pulling his arm up over your head, stepping through to the outside and spinning to bring the arm down in sort of a chicken wing, from there to lock it, kick his knee, etc. I was not impressed with my chances of pulling this off.

3. AR, your approach to criticism is fascinating. Anyone else should give Hock a chance, and you'll put up your own chance to make sure they do--but you state in definitive and profane terms that nobody needs to try the Dog Brothers/Suarez to see what they're about--just take AR's word for it. Uh huh.

4. AR, did you really tell a legit BJJ brown belt that he needs to "tone it down to your level" to understand Hock's crappling? The stuff Hock was showing there WILL NOT WORK. It just won't. If Hock decided to add grappling to his game, that's fine, but that involves learning actual grappling first, not just jumping into teaching whatever he thinks ought to work.

Hell, in the hair-grab piece he actually goes to great pains to explain why the technique he's about to show is just about irrelevant in today's world, but then goes right ahead and teaches it as his favorite technique anyway.

If you try to eye-gouge out of mount, your opponent will posture up and punch you in the head. A lot.
If you try to yank him off you with his hair, you'd better hope he has enough hair. Even if he does, it's likely you're actually making it harder to escape him by tying up your arms yanking on his head, not easier. There are better uses for your arms if you're going to try to bridge and shrimp.

I am one of these few-month white-belts Ronin referenced (though I don't train anywhere near him) and yes, I can think of a few ways I'd escape that headlock thing besides what was shown. It's just poor grappling.

Again, if you want to applaud Hock for going out and adding grappling to what he does, that's great. How did he add it? Who taught him to grapple? I'd bet it wasn't Mark Hatmaker.

**Don Gwinn** · Posted On: 11/28/2006 10:25pm

If you try to eye-gouge out of mount, your opponent will posture up and punch you in the head. A lot.

By the way, I know someone out there is screaming "ARM BAR!" at his monitor right now. That's fine, but I wanted to forestall the "Only in a sporting BJJ chess match" gambit, so I'm dealing with people who don't train armbars.

**ar549** · Posted On: 11/28/2006 11:25pm

Originally Posted by Don Gwinn

Hoo boy . . . . I just read this.

So that PM about AR's claims was referencing Hock's forum? That makes more sense. I searched for that stuff at Bullshido, but of course I didn't find it.

Let's clear up a couple of things before going forward:

1. I've never heard of Gabe Suarez falsifying police reports about shootings. I've heard it alleged (I believe by Denny Hansen, police and SWAT veteran and editor of SWAT Magazine) that Suarez now claims to have been involved in several "officer-involved shootings in the line of duty" and yet, Denny says, he knows of none. He does know of several shootings of dogs for various reasons, and theorized that Suarez is expanding those into more than they were to inflate his record because so many shooters think if an instructor never parachuted into the Congo to kill Chicoms and eliminate rogue elements of the French Foreign Legion then he must not be worth learning from.
If that sounds like very tenuous hearsay, that's because it is. It's more or less gossip. If it's going to be presented as "Don Gwinn says Suarez faked police reports of officer shootings" then I'm sorry I ever posted it.

2. I have not taken a class from Hock, but I did take an entry-level knife course from a certified instructor. It sucked. The defenses were pretty unrealistic, and despite the fact that there were only two students and we had several sparring knives from which to choose, we never did anything at so much as one-quarter speed, much less sparring of any kind. That's over the course of four hours.
The only technique I remember involved catching a midline stab with both hands on the attacker's wrist, pulling his arm up over your head, stepping through to the outside and spinning to bring the arm down in sort of a chicken wing, from there to lock it, kick his knee, etc. I was not impressed with my chances of pulling this off.

3. AR, your approach to criticism is fascinating. Anyone else should give Hock a chance, and you'll put up your own chance to make sure they do--but you state in definitive and profane terms that nobody needs to try the Dog Brothers/Suarez to see what they're about--just take AR's word for it. Uh huh.

4. AR, did you really tell a legit BJJ brown belt that he needs to "tone it down to your level" to understand Hock's crappling? The stuff Hock was showing there WILL NOT WORK. It just won't. If Hock decided to add grappling to his game, that's fine, but that involves learning actual grappling first, not just jumping into teaching whatever he thinks ought to work.

Hell, in the hair-grab piece he actually goes to great pains to explain why the technique he's about to show is just about irrelevant in today's world, but then goes right ahead and teaches it as his favorite technique anyway.

If you try to eye-gouge out of mount, your opponent will posture up and punch you in the head. A lot.
If you try to yank him off you with his hair, you'd better hope he has enough hair. Even if he does, it's likely you're actually making it harder to escape him by tying up your arms yanking on his head, not easier. There are better uses for your arms if you're going to try to bridge and shrimp.

I am one of these few-month white-belts Ronin referenced (though I don't train anywhere near him) and yes, I can think of a few ways I'd escape that headlock thing besides what was shown. It's just poor grappling.

Again, if you want to applaud Hock for going out and adding grappling to what he does, that's great. How did he add it? Who taught him to grapple? I'd bet it wasn't Mark Hatmaker.

My saying tone it down was a reference to his first few post which were just disrepectful, I said tone it down to the level your at because he seemd to calm down and start making sense. I totally respect his BJJ qaulifications as I have said, But thats does not make you a expert on everything.

I agree with you on many things and apreciate you having enough knowledge to know what Im talking about concerning draw knives and other things. I have considerable knowledge of these things despite some of the accusations that have been made about me as you have seen, most of the stuff I say turns out to be correct at the end of the day.

I dont like Marc or Gabe, If people want to train with them thats fine, their choice. They made personal attacks against me long before you ever heard of me so its a long term deal.

I have made lots of statements like playing with sticks in the park is not fighting, as its not, Its sparring. It does not validate someone as having skills, it validates them as having trained.

I have many street fights under my belt, not the kinds of things with time limits or rules. I dont bring it up to brag just to say I have been covered in blood many times, Ive stood naked being inspected for knife wounds after extremely violant encounters with multiple fighters. I find all the civilized talk of civilized martial arts to be bullshit and a bore and Im tired of the park ninjas holding claim to being bad asses for sparring. I know some bad ass and I dont make any claims to be one but I can tell you this, they treat me with respect and I treat them with respect.

Marc and Gabe never chose to do that with me so **** them, If I have made any false claims about them I would like to know about it? I have stated oppinion, Its my oppinion that Dr Gyi is scum so his student who flys his flag is scum.

Hezballa has skills there is no doubt but they are hated for their flag and what it represents. If you fly a dirty flag youre dirty.

Gabe has gun skills as would anyone who has fired off a couple pallets of ammo. I think the guy is an asshole and Im not the only one as you well know. I dont believe I qouted you as saying he shot dogs but If you direct me to where I did I will edit that. I have plenty of bad information about the guy so there is no need to qoute you on the matter.

Im not out to impress people but to be who I am, thats all, I agree with many of your observations and in general like your style. Your a good guy from what ive seen you post.

I will be opening a Muay Thai Camp in Thailand in 2007 so anyone who wants can see what Im all about can do so. Im doing other stuff too but those who come here can see it for themselves, keyboards are cheep, so is talk, and theres to much of that lately by tall talking park ninjas with high speed connetions on the Interweb and no bloody knuckles to back up what they are saying.

**RoninPimp** · Posted On: 11/28/2006 11:41pm

I stand by everything I said on this thread. This includes Hock sucking on the ground.

**ar549** · Posted On: 11/28/2006 11:58pm

Originally Posted by RoninPimp

I stand by everything I said on this thread. This includes Hock sucking on the ground.

Thats fine, I never belived you did not stand by everthing you said.

The people I have been raising hell with and me have a long history, me and you have no history so I would like to keep a reasonable tone between us as Im interested in what you say. That was what the tone it down was, I fully admit what you linked to looked like **** and it may work on some inexperianced guy who gets mounted by luck but not some pissed off guy with skills. It does not look like something I would try. I have never taken A class with him, only Rafael Lovato and I doubt if anyone would say he sucked on the ground. I have a basic set of ground skills and no belt in BJJ.

**Epa** · Posted On: 11/29/2006 12:52am

I have made lots of statements like playing with sticks in the park is not fighting, as its not, Its sparring. It does not validate someone as having skills, it validates them as having trained.

Based on the quote above, it sounds like you're saying that sparring is not a way to validate fighting skills since sparring "does not validate someone as having skills." Granted sparring is not typically done at the intensity of an actual fight; however, saying sparring doesn't validate someone's skills is bullshit. It's the best measure that most of us have for our skills, especially if you practice a weapons based style where you can't engage in real fights without any kind of protective gear without the risk of serious injury.

By the above logic, if anyone dominated me throughout a sparring match it doesn't indicate that they are better than me. This seems fundamentally wrong and an extreme example of this would be the one time I got to roll with Jean Jacques Machado. It was in a class at the Inosanto Academy and he totally controlled me without even paying attention or breaking a sweat. I know that I'm not anywhere close to the same league as this man, but by the above logic since we had a sparring match that is not an indication that JJ Machado's is better than me. That seems fundamentally wrong to me.

While that is an extreme example, I want to make the point that if you really believe that sparring has no bearing on a practitioner's skills then it becomes almost impossible to test yourself if you practice a weapons based style. Based on the above statement, I have to go out and get into real stick fights or sword fights with no protective measures to test my skills. This seems like a pretty extreme approach to martial arts training that isn't really necessary.

If I misunderstood your point, please correct me,
Eric

Eric

**Permalost** · Posted On: 11/29/2006 1:07am

Muay thai is a sport, and if a bunch of guys want to playin a ring with gloves and rules and time limits, thats great. But that does not validate that they have skills. I have many street fights under my belt, not the kinds of things with time limits or rules. I dont bring it up to brag just to say I have been covered in blood many times, Ive stood naked being inspected for knife wounds after extremely violent encounters with multiple fighters. I find all the civilized talk of civilized martial arts to be bullshit and a bore and Im tired of the park ninjas holding claim to being bad asses for sparring. I know some bad ass and I dont make any claims to be one but I can tell you this, they treat me with respect and I treat them with respect.

**oldman34** · Posted On: 11/29/2006 6:24am