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  1. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 12:08pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by M1K3
    I disagree, I think the similarty most southern kung fu styles from that time is the lack of 'rolling on the ground' techniques, ie dirty urban signature. As for number 2 I am not sure that the traveling performers (red boat opera company) either developed the art or would be considered rural.

    You missed my point. There is some similarity to other styles of the area. But many styles came from dirty cities throughout the world... including "no no not on the raw sewage" low class grappling.

    The lack of extensive grappling comes from reliance on bladed weapons (and other similarly shaped farm tools).

    I'll be more than willing to go out on a limb and speculate the the mentality of "fair fight" dueling to settle grievences was a greater factor on the influence of striking styles than any other factor.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
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    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
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    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
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  2. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 12:17pm


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    You missed my point. There is some similarity to other styles of the area. But many styles came from dirty cities throughout the world... including "no no not on the raw sewage" low class grappling.

    The lack of extensive grappling comes from reliance on bladed weapons (and other similarly shaped farm tools).

    I'll be more than willing to go out on a limb and speculate the the mentality of "fair fight" dueling to settle grievences was a greater factor on the influence of striking styles than any other factor.
    I didn't consider the weapon aspect, I like it. I didn't post the ideas in order of importance but more on the order I thought of them.
  3. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 2:50pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The analogy with bare knuckles boxing doesn't entirely work. Prior to the Marquis of Queensbury bare knuckle prize fights had throws and grappling and there was a school of fighter who practiced something called "English style shin kicking - or something like that" which sounds a lot like Muay Thai stely kicks.


    So even though London was dirty and filled with poor people they had a well rounded fighting system.
  4. Tonuzaba is online now
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    C.E. B.S.net Ambassador

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 3:17pm

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     Style: (Beautiful) Spring Roll

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    M1K3, I am thrilled that someone is trying to have a communication instead of warmongering on the topics of the Beautiful spring. Thank you. Let us all enjoy the fruitful moments this thread has to offer up to that point in the - I fear - very close future when hordes of brainless type-o-warriors are going to **** it up for good...
    I am looking forward a normal sane discussion here, although I personally don't think there is a point in discussing the creation/evolution of any MA on such broad and generalized terms as "the streets were dirty therefore there was no grappling". Wing chun as one of the latest CMA's was developed as an answer to the classical bullshit-loaded CMA's partly because of the European influence. Real life effectivity was something that was sorely missing from most CMA's, which turned into rather ritual movements series. This projected itself into the fights/duels also. Meeting up with drunken European sailor/soldiers and being KO'd with a few strong punches despite all the fancy acrobatic movements must have been a bigger eye opener for the Chinese martial artists than UFC was for the majority of BS "MA" gyms around the civilized world.

    Tom Kagan, if I remember well you wrote somewhere on Bullshido that you've trained in Hong Kong. I take that as a fact and therefore respect your views as ones based on more personal experience than mine. I've never been in Asia. However, unless you claim the whole of the wing chun family tree to be myth, you must see that there were many high class practitioners of utmost importance. Leung Jan, the King of wing chun, was a doctor, which was and is a highly respected social position in China as far as I know.
    Then again, the travelling theatre people were not always the hobos they might have looked like to the outsider. Pretty often they were intellectuals using the boat theatre as a disguise or a hideaway place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Pepper
    Chi sao isn't unique. I think you would have a harder time finding a TCMA style that doesn't have a similar exercise.
    I would strongly disagree. My experience with TCMA's is pretty limited, but I have some regarding the most known and most widespread of all CMA's besides Wing Tsun, i.e. Praying Mantis and Tai Chi. Now these also have drills/movements that might appear to the unknowing eye to be the same as Chi Sau. However, if you'd try them and compare them, you'd quickly realise the HUGE difference. To put it simply, it is the difference between sticking hands to the hands of the opponent for the sake of sticking and then doing circling movements/pushing, and sticking in order to learn to avoid the sticking and follow up with attacks.

    Tonuzaba
  5. rsobrien is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 4:15pm


     Style: 유도 (Judo)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [quote=GoJu - Joe] there was a school of fighter who practiced something called "English style shin kicking - or something like that" which sounds a lot like Muay Thai stely kicks. [quote]

    I think you are referring to the folk sport of purring. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purring
    They actually kick each other in the shins not using their shins to kick each other.

    Secret Fighting Arts of the World actually has a fairly detailed account of it, if its at all true.
  6. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 4:29pm


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tonuzaba, thanks for the input. I only did Wing Chun for a short while. It wasn't a good fit for me but there were parts I realy liked.

    I wasn't going strictly for a "streets are dirty, therefore no grappling" but more of an upper/middle/urban class vs the rural bumpkin rolling in the dirt mentality. If you look around most 'civilized' martial arts may employe throws but seldom continue the fight on the ground. Look at san da rules today in China. Also the bare knuckle boxing comparison still applies as boxers would often throw their openents which ended the round. Even if many of them landed on the oponent in the course of the throw.

    Also BKB (bare knuckle boxing) was moving into a ring, or controlled arena for fighting as it turned more into a sport.
  7. Chili Pepper is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 4:37pm


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonuzaba
    I would strongly disagree. My experience with TCMA's is pretty limited, but I have some regarding the most known and most widespread of all CMA's besides Wing Tsun, i.e. Praying Mantis and Tai Chi. Now these also have drills/movements that might appear to the unknowing eye to be the same as Chi Sau. However, if you'd try them and compare them, you'd quickly realise the HUGE difference. To put it simply, it is the difference between sticking hands to the hands of the opponent for the sake of sticking and then doing circling movements/pushing, and sticking in order to learn to avoid the sticking and follow up with attacks.
    There's a good reason why I used the word "similar". If you look at all of the southern narrow horse styles (dragon, crane, mantis, white eyebrow, jow ga, etc), they all have exercises extremely similar to wing chun's chi sau. The fighting model of all of them is close enough that their sticking hands exercises resemble each other fairly closely.

    If we look more widely, we see some version of sticking hands in hung gar, mantis, tai chi, hsing-i, pakua, and on and on and on, which don't resemble WC's version much, because their fight models are too dissimilar.

    The idea that WC's chi sau was some sort of revolution in thinking just isn't so.
  8. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 5:02pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonuzaba
    Tom Kagan, if I remember well you wrote somewhere on Bullshido that you've trained in Hong Kong. I take that as a fact and therefore respect your views as ones based on more personal experience than mine.
    I never said I trained in Hong Kong actually. I said I've been there. I did more sightseeing and meeting people than anything I'd consider extensive training. But regardless, don't take my word for things. I could just be fucking with you because I'm bored. :smile: But it is kind of fun to see how much inconsistency a critical eye can actually spot and how absolulely infuriated others become if you call them on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonuzaba
    However, unless you claim the whole of the wing chun family tree to be myth, you must see that there were many high class practitioners of utmost importance. Leung Jan, the King of wing chun, was a doctor, which was and is a highly respected social position in China as far as I know.
    Intellectuals have this peculiar tendency to document things. Many styles - even from the same region - which have actual historical links to the literate upper class have surviving documentation. Using an observation that not very much documentation exists for the 'nun-who-must-not-be-named' style as the basis to speculate its ancestors were probably not the elites of society is hardly calling out anyone as 'myth'. The very fact that Leung Jan, as an 'upper class person', is also an actual historical figure lends some credence to the idea that the rest, no matter how bright, were probably not literate and not of the same social stature or education - even those Leung Jan supposedly learned from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonuzaba
    [Then again, the travelling theatre people were not always the hobos they might have looked like to the outsider. Pretty often they were intellectuals using the boat theatre as a disguise or a hideaway place.
    In the past in other places, many people of both high and low stature who went 'on the lam' joined the circus. That, in and of itself, didn't make the circus some sort of hotbed of criminal masterminding activity.

    I do not discount the possibility of Southern Chinese traveling performers and their workers may have had colorful pasts. But, without supporting evidence, I cannot use that as the basis to speculate they were scheming to create some sort of 'uber style' designed to overthrow the Qing, but still managed to keep it all secret. Raising such armies are about logistics. Such a trail of logistics would produce a tremendous amount of supporting documentation. So, even if they were 'high class' before, they weren't really acting like it anymore. Otherwise, there would be more documentation found, IMO. Speculation that such documentation existed but is now gone, or that so-and-so belonged to the secret sect of sworn enemies of the state and traveled from port to port to find more people loyal to the cause, may be fun to think about. But, that's not history; that's what folklore is all about. :smile:
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 11/20/2006 5:13pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  9. meng_mao is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 8:03pm

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     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    I'll be more than willing to go out on a limb and speculate the the mentality of "fair fight" dueling to settle grievences was a greater factor on the influence of striking styles than any other factor.
    Quote Originally Posted by M1K3
    I disagree, I think the similarty most southern kung fu styles from that time is the lack of 'rolling on the ground' techniques, ie dirty urban signature. As for number 2 I am not sure that the traveling performers (red boat opera company) either developed the art or would be considered rural.
    I'm far more in TK's camp, in re a fair fight. In the Chinese mindset, if you throw someone down, you've pwned him, so there's no need to follow up on the ground. Though if you had to, it would consist of very insulting stomping. So even in Chinese wrestling where there's lots of grappling and contact, the goal is to bring one person down. Viz the Sanshou rule of not awarding points for a simultaneous landing after a throw.
    In the end though, unless we get some documentation confirming the proper historical/environmental context, it's all just speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonuzaba
    However, if you'd try them and compare them, you'd quickly realise the HUGE difference. To put it simply, it is the difference between sticking hands to the hands of the opponent for the sake of sticking and then doing circling movements/pushing, and sticking in order to learn to avoid the sticking and follow up with attacks.
    which art espouses which?
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  10. RunningDog is offline
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    nail conditioning

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 8:45pm


     Style: Rehab

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tuna, _ing _un threads go to **** because chunners repeat the same old arguments ad vomitum.

    Assuming that wing chun schools haven't changed that fundamentally in the last couple of hundred years (and old illustrations suggest they haven't), I'd suggest that the main problem is that it was conceived to defeat the prevailing styles in China of that period. These were largely standup kung fu styles, that had certain things in common like low stances, lunge punches etc, in short, fairly restrictive and traditional in their movements. Wing Chun was groundbreaking at the time, its shapes and stances were created to beat this styles by being 'led' by your opponent's movements, and to take the path of least resistance. Good principles.
    The trouble is, it only works if your opponent is practising either one of these traditional styles, or is less good at wing chun. The body shapes and movements don't work against a wider, and freer, variety of attacks, or grappling. So now it's like learning Latin, it has certain benefits, but little or no application in the real world.
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