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  1. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 9:13am


     Style: submission grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Wing Chun, then and now.

    I wanted to start a thread about Wing Chun that was not a flame war or mocking the art. I hope it will be about how WC came to look like it does today and where it may be heading in the future. Here are my thoughts on the subject.
    1. WC is an urban Chinese art developed in the 17th century. Cities were crowded with dirty streets. Think London of the same time period. Poor drainage and raw sewage.
    2. Grappling was seen as a lower class/peasant/rural activity. Again think England in the same time period. Also, see dirty streets listed above.
    3. Fighting at that time is looked upon as no holds barred from our perspective but there were unwritten rules about fighting. Excluding attacks from thugs and other miscreants, most fights were fought as duels. I am sure society at that time frowned on maiming or killing your opponents. In addition, it’s hard to keep students that way. Look at England in the same time period. In both sword and bare knuckle fights it was considered poor taste and a lack of skill to kill or maim an opponent.
    4. WC was developed to fight against TCMA of southeast China at that time. WC may have been influenced by bare knuckle boxing as the major foreign ports were located in SE China at that time.
    5. Full contact sparring was seldom if ever used at that time. Without the benefit of equipment it would have been too dangerous. Again, look at bare knuckle boxing training for the same time period.
    6. Chi Sao was a MAJOR step forward at that time. (See above) It allowed for a degree of aliveness that was unheard of in the 17th century. Unfortunately, I believe WC stopped evolving at some point in the 18th century.
    7. Last but not least is the comments I have been reading that WC in the ring must look like 18th century WC or else it is not WC. I believe there are some WC practitioners that are starting to look at their art with a critical eye and are beginning to test it in the ring. Modern boxing barely resembles bare knuckle boxing, yet it is still boxing. A more recent evolution is the addition of western boxing techniques into MT. I am old enough to remember watching MT fights on TV in the 60’s and early 70’s. The style did not include nearly as much punching back then and a hook was unheard of.

    Let it be known that I am a former chunner who now does BJJ. Mostly because I believe that genetically I have a predisposition to wrestling and I am descended from a long line of lower class European peasant types. In the words of BJJ Teen and JFK, “ Ich bin ein dirt fighter”. You know, that might become my sig.

    I truly expect to be flamed by both sides with this thread, so fire away.
  2. meng_mao is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 9:33am

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     Style: kickboxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can you give some sources for 1 and 2. I'm not disagreeing; I've just never heard those theories before.
    52 blocks documentary: arrived

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  3. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 9:57am


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    1. WC is an urban Chinese art developed in the 17th century. Cities were crowded with dirty streets. Think London of the same time period. Poor drainage and raw sewage.
    2. Grappling was seen as a lower class/peasant/rural activity. Again think England in the same time period. Also, see dirty streets listed above.

    Both of these ideas came from the Wing Chun museum site. Probably in some discussion forums there, but I am not sure. Also I am a bit of a historical fiction buff and if you read about cities during that time frame, clean is not the first word that comes to mind. The wrestling idea was discussed in a thread I read some place and it made sense to me. These views on wrestling were pretty common in a lot of cultures at that time. Rolling on the ground is not usually looked upon as a sophisticated urban activity. :icon_sunn
  4. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 10:19am


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One other thing, these are my opinions. I do not claim historical accuracy. But there are a lot of parallels between WC and bare knuckle boxing even if neither of them had an influence on the other. BTW in most cultures boxing tends to be more urban and wrestling more rural. Most likely a product of the environment where you are going to practice your art.
  5. MaverickZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 10:40am

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     Style: white boy jiujitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So essentially, wing chun is now irrelevant, as key factors in its creation are now important, is that what you want to say?
  6. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 10:53am


     Style: submission grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    So essentially, wing chun is now irrelevant, as key factors in its creation are now important, is that what you want to say?
    Nope, not what I am trying to say, no more than I am saying boxing is irrelevant as bare knuckle boxing was a key factor in its creation. What I am saying is that I think that WC is starting to evolve again after being dormant for a long time. And I think it would be fun to guess where this new evolution will take it. No disrespect is intended.
  7. Axelton is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 11:32am


     Style: Wing Chun, Hung Gar

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i like points 1 and 2
  8. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 11:51am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Axelton
    i like points 1 and 2

    LOL, they are the two points which I personally think make the least sense.

    To imply there is something inherent in the environment which would shape it in a certain way is certainly reasonable. However, such a "dirty urban signature" would be fairly obvious in the other arts gestated in similar locales. So, #1 sidesteps any attempt to reconcile the fact that so many styles which do not have similarities with __ng __un were also developed under the exact same or very close circumstances.

    #2 also sidesteps any attempt to reconcile the fact that most of the people involved with the style's creation were peasants from rural areas. And by being traveling performers, they were considered the lowest class of that society to boot! It also ignores that modern grappling wasn't exactly "developed" in isolated backwater areas.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

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  9. Chili Pepper is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 11:57am


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by M1K3
    5. Full contact sparring was seldom if ever used at that time. Without the benefit of equipment it would have been too dangerous. Again, look at bare knuckle boxing training for the same time period.
    The TCMA answer was the development of two-man forms, allowing both practitioners to strike as hard as they wanted to without risk of injury, as well as showing correct application of blocking technique.

    6. Chi Sao was a MAJOR step forward at that time. (See above) It allowed for a degree of aliveness that was unheard of in the 17th century. Unfortunately, I believe WC stopped evolving at some point in the 18th century.
    Chi sao isn't unique. I think you would have a harder time finding a TCMA style that doesn't have a similar exercise.
  10. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 11:58am


     Style: submission grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    LOL, they are the two points which I personally think make the least sense.

    To imply there is something inherent in the environment which would shape it in a certain way is certainly reasonable. However, such a "dirty urban signature" would be fairly obvious in the other arts gestated in similar locales. So, #1 sidesteps any attempt to reconcile the fact that so many styles which do not have similarities with __ng __un were also developed under the exact same or very close circumstances.

    #2 also sidesteps any attempt to reconcile the fact that most of the people involved with the style's creation were peasants from rural areas. And by being traveling performers, they were considered the lowest class of that society to boot! It also ignores that modern grappling wasn't exactly "developed" in isolated backwater areas.

    I disagree, I think the similarty most southern kung fu styles from that time is the lack of 'rolling on the ground' techniques, ie dirty urban signature. As for number 2 I am not sure that the traveling performers (red boat opera company) either developed the art or would be considered rural.
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