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  1. Crow is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2006 9:03pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Mixed Diciplines

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Finnish Jujutsu Style - Hokutoryu:

    So, not sure if this is exactly the place to post this. I thought about posting links with pictures, clips and movies about the style that I practise mainly called Hokutoryu, secondary styles that I occasionally practise are BJJ and KB but I am no expert on either, my grapling skills on the ground are at the moment better than my stand up striking which is totally BJJ's result.

    From you guys, I hope input and feedback on what you think based on mys description and the movies and images.

    First, some links: http://www.hokutoryu.ir/gallery.htm (this is the site of Iranian club whit extensive gallery of many training camps, No fucking idea how it has spread there as Iran and Finland are not close by any means, my gues is that there were a exchange student or refugee who trained in Finland and spread the style, I do not know how big is in there, might be one club, might be hundred???)

    Movies: http://www.ju-jutsuklubi.fi/mediav.php (this is one of the very few sites where there is even small clips of the techniques, the 7# video is sparring altough by the grace of god I do not know why they have put that up, since I am a orange belt and our sparring is with more speed, contact and intention than that, IMO a bad vid to be labeled sparring...)

    Here is one more link: http://www.mikkelinjujutsu.net/ at the center of the page there is a link:
    Lajiesittelyn 2006 video
    (28 mb)
    Click on it and then save or open, it is a longer video of a demo a club in Mikkeli did.

    I can dig up more videos and pictures later if people are interested.

    A short analysis and history of the style (by me from various sources): Hokutoryu Ju-jutsu would more accurately be said to be Goshin Jutsu style, since it has no direct historical lineage to JJJ, it shares in great deal the history of the British Jujitsu.

    The founder of Hokutoryu is Auvo Niiniketo, currently holding a 8th dan, in jujutsu which was signed by soke Richard Morris and few other hig grades (among them one Japanese but I have no idea that sensei from a classical style or just a goshin jutsu instructor who happens to be ethnic japanese). Niiniketo also holds 5th dan in kickboxing by WAKO. He is also the first man to bring Kickboxing in to Finland and in his dojo was the first KB club started, which runs even today (I train there occasionally).

    Niiniketo's training started with boxing (his highest achievement was Bronze in Finnish Championships, dont remember the year, can dig up later if necessary). Later when he did not actively compete he started karate which had just came to Finland and later discovered jujitsu when he was on a training trip to boxing club in Stockholm, Sweden.

    After many different contacts and routes he finally started to study and grade under Richard Clarke and Robert Morris of WJJF.

    The solution to start his own style was after decades of doing British jujitsu. He noticed that his experience in boxing, later kickboxing had made training in Finland a bit different in many parts, to this added also the isolation from the main jujitsu circle in Britain (he was after all training most of the time in Finland altough they extensively traveled in Europe in training camps and seminars, nowdays that pays of as many foreign instructors come to Finland to give instruction on Hokutoryu camps).

    Nowdays Hokutoryu has spread to almost everywhere in Finland and to many neighbour countries. It's standards are tried to kept high by national camps, where you have to go to grade and by long times between grades, (from 8 months in the lower kyu grades up to a year, the time between brown and black is not defined but always over a year, most people spend more than one year on each kyu grade).

    The grading system is same as in judo (white, yellow, orange, green, blue, brown, black) and in green and onwards full-contact fighting with hokutoryu rules (explained later) is mandatory. The intensity and lenght of time and numbers of opponents increases in each grading.

    Hokutoryu rules are following: full-contact, bare knucke. Now gear expect mouthpiece and a jockstrap (???). Strikes to the head, back of the head and to the spine are illegall. Other wise all strikes, kicks and knees (also to the head and low kicks) are allowed, all throws, locks and submissions, striking is allowed on the ground (but not to the head).

    General training is done in partner training, some practise of kicks and punches are done in formations (as in karate) but to my understanding this is reserved only for the very beginning. Partner training consists of techniques, usually block+strike+throw+submission/lock. Other than that training is mostly either "jujutsu randori" or sparring.

    The jujutsu randori means training where one person is attacked by one or more assailants with different attacks and he must respond to them with anything that comes to mind, bonus points if it works but in essence as long as you start punching the other guy back it is sufficient. This trainings intensity increases when you go up the levels but stills remains pretty compliant in my eyes.

    Sparring consists of many different types (can vary somewhat from club to club). Generally it is stand up, throwing and ground or all (hokutoryu rules but ofcourse not fullcontact in the training all the time). Before green it is without punches to the face but from green onwards you must own and bring boxing gloves to the training. My sparring has been without gloves as I am a orange belt but with contact (depends on the opponent, often we are told to do light sparring).

    Good things: Clear, IMO working techniques (I actually did this tyle a short while when I was 14 and used few of the techniques in scuffle at school without thinking, result of the strict drilling I gues), strict dicipline (can be minus too I gues), notion that physique matters (I have not ever walked out of training without pouring of sweat, altough that can say more about me than the training, also, I have never seen out of shape high kyu grade or BB). Many guards, police officers train in the style, so lot of the practitioners have evalute their learning on the field, however many have jumped to MMA, BJJ or Krav Maga also. Military also has their own version of the style and it is practised in many closed clubs on garrisons - I do not know how many there are. One of the early students of Niiniketo was a navy officer, now 6th dan who has apparently greatly affected to the style with his training partner Risto Väntär, also a 6th dan in Hokutoryu jujutsu and 1th dan kickboxing under WAKO.

    Bad things: As said, strict dicipline, not everybody likes it and there are some people in other arts (I have mostly talked to karate and taekwondo people, who have a noted tendency to dislike Hokutoryu), some dislike it also greatly because it is called ju-jutsu without the direct historical lineage.

    In my eyes, the greatest minus is the amount of time put into the alive training. As I also train in BJJ I have noted how sparring is the key element to increase you skills and abilities. However, I must conclude that I am only and orange belt and I assume and believe - and hope - that the amount alive training (and its intesity) increases in advanced training (greenbelts and up). In every training however, once I got my orange, we have so sparring either stand up or ground but usually both. However, after this there is push ups and sit ups etc, this time could be put to sparring IMO and have peoples fitness grow and upheld trough that.

    If any questions arose, please do ask. I will answer as best as I can but my knowledge base and lack of experience means that I am no expert on the subject. In my opinion, a great style but should move more into the MMA grounds... If you disagree, please say so and explain, what is it that you disagree with (and I actually hope you do disagree can give insights and angles that I have missed or simply ignored... everybody wants to think their own style is good).

    Anyways, thanx in advance.

    Edit: one more link added
    Last edited by Crow; 11/19/2006 9:23pm at .
  2. patfromlogan is online now
    patfromlogan's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2006 9:06pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sounds like another way to beat up the Russians. Wait a minute, they do Kyokulshin!
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  3. Axelton is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2006 10:47pm


     Style: Wing Chun, Hung Gar

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan
    Sounds like another way to beat up the Russians. Wait a minute, they do Kyokulshin!
    they do everything...extremely well.
  4. Crow is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/21/2006 10:54am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Mixed Diciplines

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, no opinions about how the style looks like and what think of the pics and few vids? Too bad, I was hoping that some could - with a more experienced eye - point out where they tought there were room to improve the most.
  5. jeansberg is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/05/2007 9:39am


     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My gym teaches this too. I'm bumping this, hoping that someone can comment on it. It sounds good to me, but I have no experience whatsoever with jiu-jitsu.
  6. Lujke is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/05/2007 2:29pm


     Style: Systema & BJJ noob,x BBT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, general comments about WJJF jujutsu in my (limited) experience of it. It's a relatively modern jujutsu form. The technique base appears to be mostly judo style throws and locks, with karate strikes added in. Someone else may know a detailed derivation of it, but from what I have seen, most of it looks like an attempt to 'reverse engineer' koryu jujutsu by adding the strikes back in to judo technique.
    That's not a terrible thing. Judo technique is good.

    However, the use of karate-style strikes within judo technique is of debateable merit, when compared to classical koryu striking (atemi). Karate striking of this sort usually involves 'bigger' motions than that of classical jujutsu, with chambered striking positions, etc.

    This reflects a different emphasis. In most karate styles, the strikes are intended to be 'finisher' techniques in their own right. In contrast, the smaller, smoother strikes of classical jujutsu tend to be designed to fit into the 'flow' of a technique and to aid in disrupting the opponent's body structure, balance and ability to resist the lock or throw which is the real finisher.

    In these video clips, the larger strikes are used within the jujutsu techniques, and appear to sit uncomfortably there. I'd venture to say that in most cases the 'defender' only really has time to pull off the whole technique sequence because the 'attacker' is completely passive after the initial attack.


    More detailed comments on individual clips:

    1: The dropping elbow strike causes a 'gap' in time between the attacker falling and the defender covering and applying the submission. Is the strike necessary, given that the defender has just been thrown? Would it not be more efficient to make sure the attacker is pinned before striking/submitting him?

    2:'Staccato' technique, with clear pauses in between sections of action. Sometimes this is done deliberately to try to make things easier for students to pick up on, but it's not a good habit if you want to learn to fight.

    3: Again, 'big' strikes, while the attacker just stands there. The theory may be that the first strike will stun him, but it's probably not safe to rely on that. The pose at the end looks like a karate back stance, rather than anything jujutsu related.

    4: On the initial block, this may not be a good angle to move at: it brings the defender in range of the attacker's other hand, and opens the defender up to a groin kick. He may be defending/covering the hand though, it's not clear due to the camera angle. On the whole, though, this isn't where I'd choose to move, personally.

    5: Why dump him on his head after he's already been choked out (symbolised by the 'tap') The arm lock at the end is dubious - looks like the attacker could squirm out of it without too much difficulty if he was resisting.

    6: There's a pause between 1st and 2nd kick - the attacker is unlikely just to stand there. There's a longer pause after the 2nd kick, while the defender prepares himself for the throw. Considering that this is a demo and the partner is compliant, it's odd that this is the best that the defender can do.

    I realise that all that is likely to sound quite nit-picky, and the videos are not all bad. At least the motions look practiced and confident. There are certainly worse things out there than WJJF jujutsu.

    The other really big thing I didn't emphasise so far is the degree of compliance. If the schools are training with lots of sparring, the problems I'm picking up on here probably disappear in that context. However, if the sparring is limited in quantity or quality, there are probably better places to spend your time learning.

    Of course, these are just my opinions/observations (and I'm far from the best qualified to judge stuff) but I hope you find them helpful.
  7. jeansberg is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2007 12:37am


     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's very helpful. I will participate in an MMA beginner's course starting August, and the gym lets you take the Hokutoryu for the same price.
  8. Lujke is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2007 2:21am


     Style: Systema & BJJ noob,x BBT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's cool. Perhaps you can come back and let us know how it goes when you've done enough to get a flavour of it.

    A word of advice, though: if the training is largely through compliant partner drills, don't be fooled by that. Keep asking yourself: can I really pull this technique off against a resisting opponent, who is actually trying to hurt me? If you lose sight of that, it's really easy to end up quite deluded about your ability to defend yourself.
  9. Rubberduck is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2007 3:15am


     Style: Savate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When I trained Hokuto-ryu, MMA was not around, but knockdown tournaments were. Also, after orange belt, you could take kickboxing lessons for free, and local judokas helped in our throwing training.
  10. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2007 6:07am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I may be thinking of another group but isn't Hokuto-Ryu and ALLIANCE BJJ school as well?

    I remember a Finnish team at both CBJJ European Championships tournaments I went to. They had both Alliance and Hokuto Ryu patches on their gi.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
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