Well, gentlemen, it has been interesting and sometimes pretty fun. But now I have to go back to work and I do not have the time to respond in such detail to replies. Should there be a time when you need to reach me, my email is [email protected]. I am glad to answer any serious email there.
I wish everyone the best in their training and development. If anyone was upset or felt badly after any of my posts, I certainly apologize.
I am glad there is a forum such as this, where everyone can speak their mind and have an opinion. Many people do not appreciate this about our country and fail to realize the cost for this ability, past and future. I hope I can make a positive contribution to society, however small, when I have the opportunity.
Best of luck to everyone here.
Keep shakin' the tree until the fruit falls.
Where did this Korean guy learn shaolin Kung Fu?
Also, is this style supposed to be Tekken? I never heard of this style when I was in Korea.
to the burning monk /bow, /fulldragonbow
Dae Yeon Sa Temple in South Korea.
Originally Posted by burningmonk
Better question to ask, would be: "Who was his primary master?"
The answer would be: "Eun Kwang Bup Sa - Temple Headmaster"
Eun Kwang Bup Sa was born in 1895 and died in 1996 at the age of 101 years. He was headmaster of Dae Yeon Sa Temple from 1955 until his passing. Eun Kwang Bup Sa was Master Yi's Grandmaster.
Another Question you should ask is: "When did he enter the temple to begin his training?"
The answer would be:
Grandmaster Wonik Yi entered Dae-Yeon temple at the age of five in 1964. He lived at the temple until the age of nineteen and trained in traditional shaolin Moosul (Martial Arts)
He was conscripted into the armed services at that time.
One final question should be something like:
"What rank is he?"
Grandmaster Wonik Yi was granted the 9th degree (Dan) designation, which is the ultimate degree in martial arts, by his master, Eun Kwang Bupsa, before EKB died in 1996.
Last edited by grasshoppa; 4/25/2008 10:43pm at .
IIRC from my upbringing in Korea Tukgongmoosul is one of the many many different types of HKD.
Sort of like how these new korean martial arts out there such as "hwarangdo," "Kongkwon Yoosul Hapkido," etc etc all look sort of the same. My country's history, especially martial arts history, martial arts denominations, martial arts classification is soooo jacked up and confusing that I have no idea whats what anymore. To be honest, my two black belts from the different federations claiming different lineage was confusing enough. (Korea HKD federation, Korea Kidohwe Hwalinkwan, Kuksulwon Hapkido..OMFG!! :5shocking)
To top everything off, the recent movement to translate the "Mooyetongboji" and revive it as some sort of traditional martial art threw everything in the toilet and flushed it all together into the biggest septic tank full of BULLSHIDO.
I know Korea has some good martial arts, but holy crap does it get all confusing when you try to put it together.
I wonder how things were before before the Japanese colonization of the early 20th century.
It is my opinion that lineages doesn't really matter anymore, since martial arts travel across borders and contineously get updated. Seems to me that there has always been a cycle of a nation receiving outside martial arts, then that martial art developing within its borders, then traveling out..
BUT does ANYONE have a clear answer? The Tukgongmoosool lineage explained here actually sounds pretty clear, and it sounds pretty honest in that the OP just explains how modern it is.
BTW, there are many special forces units in Korea. Do you have any specific details on which unit they were? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Korea_Army has a list of all the units in the S.K. Army.
Oh damn, was I just part of necroing an old thread?
muhahaha... Jive Hand man strikes again!!!
Originally Posted by dwkfym
You fell for my wikked evil scheme, martial arts hero!!!
Post one more thread, and your kidnapped girlfriend gets it!!!
<motions a fingertip across his throat, brushing against a 9 inch Fu Manchu>
Yes, but I necro'd it to answer a question.
I like the way you think. It is rather unfortunate that the invading Niponese murdered countless masters of native martial arts <to prevent master led uprisings>.
Originally Posted by dwkfym
Korean Martial arts would not have adopted the Japanese Sword <Ken>
Instead the chinese longsword, and chinese war sword (tul war) would have remained about it. Plus there wouldn't have been Judo/Jujitsu. Thus No Hapkido by way of JuJitsu / Judo.
These would be your mainline schools:
Soo Bahk Do and these other martial arts practiced at the end of the Korean Yi Dynasty which included Sip Pal Ki, Sam Sip Yuk Ki, Sip Pal Ban, Sip Pal Jip, Sam Sip Yuk Jip, Sip Pal Jong, Sam Sip Yuk Jong and Tang Soo Do.
(The martial art of Sip Pal Ki included 18 military weapons which included the staff, sword and spear.)
But you would have thousands of Tae Kyun clubs/schools. And a lot more of schools/sytles like:
The "modern" mixed martial art of "Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan" is which is more than 50 years old. It began when Grand Master Hwang Kee began teaching it in Seoul, Korea in the fall of 1945. He mastered Soo Bahk Do and Tae Kyun by the age of 22. In 1936, Master Kee traveled to northern China where he encountered a Chinese variation of martial artistry called the Tang Method. He studied the Tang Method of Kung Fu from 1936-1945 and combined it with Soo Bahk Do to develop what he would call Tang Soo Do.
In truth, TSDMDK is a MMA from several traditional martial arts.
"Modern" Tang Soo Do derives its hardness from Soo Bahk Do and its softness from northern Chinese Kung Fu. Grand Master Kee said his art is 60% Soo Bahk Do, 30% northern Chinese Kung Fu and 10% southern Chinese Kung Fu.
LET ME EMPHISIZE THIS: the absence of Japan, would have meant the Continued presence of China
GM Hwang Kee also incorporated some of the foot techniques of Tae Kyun in modern Tang Soo Do.
Tae Kyun was a style of fighting that developed toward the end of the Yi Dyansty. It employed only foot techniques.
Hwang Kee wrote "Tae Kyun was a form of street fighting and lacked mental discipline".
"Ancient Tang Soo Do" was practiced in China as well as Korea. It was widespread during the age of Chun Chu (about 2,700 years ago).
Originally Posted by dwkfym
The ancient document "Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji" called the martial art of China "Soo Bahk Ki."
SO "Soo Bahk Do" is from Ancient China by way of "Soo Bahk Ki"
Chun Chu preceded the Han Dynasty. Soo Bahk Ki expanded during the Han Dynasty (206 B.C.-220 A.D.), the Yang Dynasty (220-618 A.D.), the Tang Dynasty (618-907 A.D.), and the Song Dynasty (907-1126 A.D.).
Originally Posted by dwkfym
May this one respectfuly disagree?
My direct studies under GM Won Ik Yi have tought me, that real Tukong Moosul as taught by Him or the 6 Masters (who refounded it on a solid foundation) bears little resemblence to the art currently running with the same name. Its gotta have that Ip Sun to be the real deal. Is Ip Sun, Shaolin Style Ki Training included in the HKD programs?
It Does Matter!
Originally Posted by dwkfym
So Lineage is like DNA. If you know the family members, and see the fruit of subsequent generations. You can compare is it still an apple or has become an orange.
Propagation of any art is critical to its survival. The seed must express its nature and reproduce. It must also, evolve to meet present age and its conditions, while remaining true to its nature.
Crossbreeding outside genes into stable lines has often been employed to catalize this process. If overdone you will certainly lose Identity and Purpose.
No One will ever know for 100% certainty. The name Tukong is an invention of Master Bruce Higgins, as its spelled in this sentence, I will never dispute that.
Originally Posted by dwkfym
But the One Man or 6 Men will forever remain a point of debate. I have looked deep into Master Yi's eyes and seen an honest and Honorable man. I have chosen to accept his word in this matter as the truth.
I was there..
It is always good to have "faith" in your master. It is always good to trust your master. But it is even better to "trust, but verify" as President Reagan used to say. I did that with all my Masters. I only found a few men that were completely honest and I could verify what they told me.
Won Ik Yi was my Master at one time and I WROTE the manual, LITERALLY. I know that the verified facts of my current Master, In Ki Kim and the claims of my former Master do not agree. So I have to go with what I verified as the truth rather than accept that BOTH are telling the truth.
I am not sure how many times you have been to Korea, if ever. I have been there 5 times and taught classes there. But there is a World Tuek Gong Federation there (Google it) that you just might find some interesting viewpoints expressed when you speak the name, Yi Won Ik.
When I was in Korea last year, May-June 2007, I walked into a Tuek Gong school in Seoul and the Master did not speak English. He recognized me from the TUKONG.com site. He had a White Belt student translate his words to me. He showed me the Tuek Gong book and wanted to make sure that I took it back to America to set the record straight about Yi Won Ik. I gave the book to Master In Ki Kim who was with me for that trip. He looked at it and laughed at a few things, but said it was pretty accurate as far as he could tell. It DID NOT have the name Yi Won Ik in it anywhere.
He showed me some demo Hapkido moves as if they were something I had never seen. he showed me more since I did not seem impressed. I did not want to cause problems (not normal for me usually, but I was a guest) but after a few minutes, I just could not take it anymore. I did all the moves he showed and then showed him and his students my moves and what I taught. I started with BASIC white BELT fighting lessons.
I showed them how to kick someone's knee with the ball of their foot and how to do it with your shoes on using the TOE of the shoe. Just the basic I idea of kicking someone with the toe of your shoe into their inner knee was a revelation to them. Concentrating the force into a small area like a hammer head, rather than distributing the force over the top of the foot was like an epiphany! They had never trained with shoes on before or been taught to fight like that.
One student said it was "dirty fighting" (translated for me). DUH! It is combat and there are no rules. But when I asked the Master, who was in the Tuek Gong unit, did he EVER train without boots on while learning there, he said no. So then why train Tuek Gong here barefoot? Isn't that NOT realistic? Since the military NEVER made him take his boots off, why weren't his students training like the military trains if it is REAL Tuek Gong? If shoes and boots change your balance, speed, force and traction, then shouldn't students train, at least SOMETIME, in the same clothes and shoes that they would probably ACTUALLY fight in? Why ALWAYS remove your shoes?
None of his students had ever trained with their shoes on or in street clothes, let alone in military boots with steel toes. I should have NEVER brought this point up. I should have just let it alone. But REAL TUKONG was for fighting and combat on real dirt, gravel, rocks, glass, snow, etc.. and NO soldier EVER trained barefoot.
It was right then, that the students (just what I was trying to avoid at first) started asking me questions as if their Master was not there. I stayed and showed them more. Here was this 6'3" 220 lbs. American showing them things in fighting they had never seen before. Here they had seen an American Tukong Master that told them that ALL of his students ALWAYS wear shoes to train as they would fight. It blew their whole concept of what they had been taught for years. The Master finally said he needed to leave so I had to also. Oh well.
But I digress. Believe your Master just like the Korean students did, until they saw with their own eyes, new facts and heard concepts and arguments that made sense, but their Master did not know or use. Then they still trusted him I am sure, but did not blindly follow their HONEST instructor.
Honest men and liars can still not know the truth of many things. I just don't care any more. I stopped training anyone but me and one loyal student, Gyu-Sang Chang. One Master, one student. That is the traditional way and NOT the TUKONG way. Now, in Austin again, I train myself, practice what I have been taught, train at GOLD's and I look for more teachers so that I can learn even more.
Now that I live in Austin again, I see Tukong students and instructors once in a while. But none of them were there really when it all was happening and their history was being written. None seem to know anymore than what they read and regurgitate back to anyone who asks. None seem to have any desire to verify anything because that might show DISLOYALTY or dishonor or for whatever reason they have for not verifying things. Doesn't matter to me. I just train, practice and look for more knowledge.
Doesn't look like you or anyone else has shown Tukong Moosul in a positive light. Every forum I have seen you on has become a bickering match. GM Yi is a very talented martial artist and his claims were all real cool in the 80's, but then I was 16 years old back then. I wish everyone would be honest about the true history, but then that will never happen in Korean Martial Arts. Any way Jimmy, hope you get help with your issues, or at least find a way not to piss everyone off. Thanks for the chicken fired steak at Chilli's back in 1986.
>>One Master, one student. That is the traditional way and NOT the TUKONG way.>>
Always two there is! Good gosh don't join the dark side Jimmy! Search your feelings.....
You realize Jimmy hasnít posted in a while right?
Originally Posted by Skipper1969
He comes, blows smoke and then leaves.
I'm not surpised. Believe it or not Jimmy can be a really nice guy who wants to make friends from what I remember, but that was a whole life time ago. He told me the damsel in distress story one cold night in 1986 at Chilli's in Austin, think it was real close to what was North Cross Mall. I told Jimmy years ago that story seemed outlandish, but he refuses to recant the story.
Anyway, I was there too (at the dojang) and some details on facts he reported here were left out by accident or on purpose. I sparred him back then, he was an adult and I was a junior and later a senior at Georgetown High School.
If he pops back up ask him about the 1st Shaolin Martial Arts school tournement. Also ask him who won. He was never in the leauge of Jay Davis. Heck Jay didn't even care for me, thought I was too cocky. I was a youngster though. Jay isn't in Tukong anymore nor am I.
Master Yi was a exceptional Martial Artist, but his claims don't have the same draw they used too. Jimmy used to be his biggest fan spouting the claims like they were the truth written in gold. I was also there when he left, but never got into the details or rumors about Master Yi's sister. I was one rank below Jimmy and achieved that in just 6 months, but I did have a prior BB in Kukki TKD before moving to Austin. I was in the "Master's Program" haha, did me a lot of good. My orginal Master told me years later that Master Yi was just "talent"whatever that meant. Oh yeah ask Jimmy about the Dae Young Sa Temple Guards/Warriors called Inja's!
I do remember General Chang Ki Oe (hope I got it right) visiting, but have no idea what for. Anyway, I'm one person who knows some truths about Jimmy, but only Jimmy knows what's in his heart.
I was just surprised to see Jimmy posting here. Heck I had no idea he left In Ki Kim!
Jon David Payne