Posted On:11/22/2006 11:02am
Style: Yudo, Karate
Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
'Turtling' in Judo often means lying flat on your belly frantically grabbing your own collar, rather than a wrestling/BJJ foetal-position type 'turtle'. You can't reverse, stand or escape from it, but back mount is not a pin and you can stall long enough for the ref to stand you up.
I wouldn't call it frantically grabbing your own collar. When performed properly, you cross grip your collars deep, tuck your chin in, belly down, drop your weight on your stomach, so your attacker will have hard time 'flipping' you for a pin for ippon in Judo rule, chin is tucked in to defend against RNC, and collars are cross gripped deep to defend against collar chokes.
If turtle is done very solidly, it's hard to sink any hooks in or hands through for RNC quickly. However, it is just matter of time and eventually you can break through. This is all to stall newaza till ref stands you back up. Popular competition tactics...
Most Judokas need to break out of this mentality of 'stalling by turtling'.
I mean turtling works for Judo competition...but when Judokas compete or roll outside Judo rules...they need to break out of this mentality and some can't seem to do it fast enough or do it at all. Then again, influx of BJJ and other grapplings MA is definitly impacting so say Judoka like me and others have changed view.
Posted On:11/22/2006 5:40pm
that's when we start getting into the area where i have no idea wtf i'm talking about. i know nothing about no gi grappling. i've had people do the occasional judo throw on me with no gi, but even in those times, i'd rather have done a double, a single or maybe some greco throws.
Posted On:11/23/2006 12:42am
The judo turtle is a natural evolution of judo as a sport. When you hit the ground in that position in a competition it is generally the best position to stay in if you have a strong defense. Trying to pull guard or reverse is much more likely to get you pinned and cost you the match. It's hard to get a strong turtler into something resembling progress within the 5-10 seconds you have until you get stood up. Thus in judo competition it is a good strategy.
I'm not saying it's a good habit to bring to other grappling arts with different rules but under judo rules a strong turtle is a good skill to have. The one good thing judo groundwork teaches you is aggressive and positional control. When you only have a very limited time to work you are much more aggressive than when you have all day to work into your sub. In judo comps you are usually working for a pin rather than a sub so you often work body control a lot.
I'd say my ground skills are above average for judoka. I can't remember the last time I was caught in a sub in a tournament and it's been a long time since I got caught in a pin either. I also can't remember the last time I was caught in a choke in randori. That said, my limited experience with BJJ practitioners has shown me a few things. They really know how to work guard. I couldn't believe how nicely one guy swept into juji from there, caught me like I was a white belt... the one time anyway. I'm usually very confidant and aggressive attacking into guards since judokas are fairly weak at sweeps and subs from there but that learned me. The other is that BJJers generally don't work at the same aggression level judoka do. I'd say that's a product of having unlimited time on the ground,something judoka don't have.
Standing is a whole different thing but we've covered that pretty good. Except to say that if you're finding ukemi and falls from doubles pretty easy on your body, you're not doing them right.
So the turtle is bad, except for in judo competitions where it's a legimate defense to get back to your feet. Just make sure you remember where you are and act accordingly.
The other thing is that leaving your feet exposed all the time isn't because of judo, it's because you're a noob. You're probably leaving your arms and neck exposed more than you should but you can't blame that on judo. Experience will enable you to protect yourself better in all exposed areas.
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