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View Poll Results: I am OK with people that put more into the "art" than into the "martial"?

Voters
172. You may not vote on this poll
  • Strongly Agree: Aikido would be better without all the fighting.

    2 1.16%
  • Agree: Not everyone wants to fight in the UFC...

    35 20.35%
  • Neither: Silly, but at least they're getting some social contact and light aerobics.

    39 22.67%
  • Disagree: no aliveness? no sparring? Not a martial art.

    66 38.37%
  • Strongly Disagree: **** THOSE BITCHES! I'LL EAT THEIR FACE! XYENCE!

    8 4.65%
  • Comedy Option: Ducks in hats.

    22 12.79%
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  1. ViciousFlamingo is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 10:29am


     Style: BJJ & Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Stolenbjorn
    As long as you respect us, I can live with that:love5:

    (I'm a total history-freak, and trying to learn how things were done in europe 600 years ago does it for me.) Now; the difference between wma and ema is that in the east there are traditions that goes back in an unbroken (though altered) chain back in time teacher-student, teacher-student, where as in europe, that chain have been broken. (There are probably a few olympic fencers, olympic wrestelers and boxers that claims otherwise, and in their cases, they're partially right; there is a chain going back.) But for longsword, sword and buckler, helebard, staff, spear, the chain have been broken.

    So while a "cranky old asian" MA might be full of "cranky old Asian guys yelling about RACKING DISCIPRIN", the WMA is full of people in the 20's - 30's with a mixed background from many MA's, trying to read, understand and grasp manuals that are 400 - 700 years old.

    Back on topic; I fully agree with honesty in what one does:exclaim:
    See, that actually makes some damn sense. I remember reading up on the Code Duello and such just because I thought that kind of thing was cool when I was a little kid. However, I think there's an important part of why I couldn't understand the culture thing. WMA does have manuals and books and other historical documents that record quite a bit of the arts and various techniques. However, I would argue that the chain for many TEMA (I'm thinking specifically of TCMA, that's where most of my experience is) is definitely MUCH more broken than for WMA. Saying that arts got passed down from teacher-student is simply not true. Very often people would claim to know a MA in order to get respect or make a few bucks teaching suckers, and the ones who did actually learn the art eventually stopped pressure-testing the arts for various reasons and the arts stagnated. This is the legacy that TEMA has left us with: bullshido and dead arts.

    That's why the cultural concept didn't stick with me. To me, it is pretty much impossible to recreate an unarmed martial art, since there are no actual documents to rely on, just word of mouth. To think that one could figure out how to "punch just like those Shaolin monks" is not only ridiculous, it's also useless. At most, people would be able to punch just like somebody's teacher did four generations ago. Hell, why bother, it's not like it's any more effective (it's less so, if anything) than modern MMA, it's not like our anatomy has changed. But recreating a WMA, specifically those that are weapon-based, is interesting because nobody fights with longswords on the battlefield anymore, and the correct resurrection of a WMA would give you a non-stagnant, effective MA that can be verified somewhat by historical documents.

    Did that make any sense to you?
    Last edited by ViciousFlamingo; 11/14/2006 10:33am at .
  2. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Exasperated.

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 11:01am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hvyhands81
    As long as they are humble, I respect those who put the art first.
    You're funny.
  3. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 11:04am

    supporting member
     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    What "issues" should we be discussing here? This site has always been about trash talking shitty martial arts. So that's what we do. Trash talk shitty martial arts. PAJAMA WEARING FAG!
    http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/w...bersisters.htm


    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan
    The Poll: I am OK with people that put more into the "art" than into the "martial"?

    implies that there is a degree of "art" and a degree of "martial" and that one has more of one part. 52%?


    Or is this a school that has an hour and a half of warmups, striking air, kata, self defense, hitting pads, and shortly before the ending set of pushups and crunches, spends a big ten minutes sparring? That describes the typical Kyokushin dojo.
    As pointed out, the poll is not too specific or logical. One could ask how much art vs how much martial? People seem to assume that some schools training can be called martial and some art. What defines art? Obviously, we snicker at silk pj's and kata based arts. But at what point does "more" art become a bad habit. IMHO you can do tons of art, sprinkled with a little hard sparring to have a legit style.

    Kyushin-Ryu, a trad Okinawan style, spars ONCE every quarter and they take it very seriously. One of their bbs won his heavy weight fight here http://www.ucombat.com/Index.asp (check out the new intro video, you meatheads will love it) with one punch (he has come down to our mma school and wrestled our bbs also - he didn't enter a mma comp with only standup, I admit). But the point being is that he, and "Rhino" and Patrick and Conners and Sam Chavez are fighters that I've fought (pretty lightly, I don't like injuries) and somehow a dojo that hardly evers spars produces very tough fighters.

    The Sensei thinks that the sport guys downtown who spar often are wasting their time learning bad habits. They could be seen as practicing dead drills over and over, but the intensity of their drilling belays that supposition. Similarly in Kyokushin we often didn't spar at all. We did spend a lot more of our time hitting air and drilling self defense. But the first time I showed up at the Honolulu dojo we warmed up and I was called to the front of the class and sparred every black, brown (and the lone green) one after another. Total fun, but the point being somehow the training that largely ignored fighting, and that might be seen to be much the same as the kind of training LARPERS do, trains their students to get it on. I think that an analogy could be seen with the top mountain bikers - many never train mountain biking, they train on the road because mountain biking is too dangerous.

    "Karate is the most ZEN-like of all the martial arts. It has abandoned the sword. This means that it trascends the idea of winning and losing to become a way of thinking and living for the sake of other people in accordance with the way of Heaven. Its meanings, therefore, reach the profound levels of human thought." - Oyama
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 11/14/2006 11:07am at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  4. Wataboxa is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 11:14am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The reason one trains is their business and questioning why, how, or when is LAME. Worry about your own training and what you are in it for.


    Personally I can see why a person would choose more art and another more Martial. Maybe the person wanting more Art is aware of their fighting Skill after being in enough fights. Maybe this particular person realizes they are a Hot Head would like an art that helps to channel this energy more efficiently. Maybe the person seeking more Martial was a Fag that got stuffed in Lockers while in highschool and now looks to build him/her self up in a controlled environment.

    Who knows and why should anyone care save for the person doing the training.
  5. PirateJon is offline
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    and good morning to you too

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 11:24am

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     Style: MT/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan
    The Poll: I am OK with people that put more into the "art" than into the "martial"?

    implies that there is a degree of "art" and a degree of "martial" and that one has more of one part. 52%?
    There is, but nothing so precise and formulaic.

    I mean, "Martial artist" is a huge term. So in "fighting BS in the martial arts" we have to draw a line between "silly, but ok" and "BS". how much acceptance and love to we give those that are close to the line - the C and D students of MA? I wanted to see where people stood on training in styles outside the typical MMA 5 (of BJJ, MT, Boxing, Wrestling, Judo). Can I be a martial artist without truly fighting? Can I be a martial artist without training alive? Can I call a 10 year old wushu forms kid a "martial artist"?

    Looking at the poll... it seems that training in non-sport-fighting arts (god there needs to be some new terms for all of this) is generally OK if you have an awareness of what you want. Nothing new. But what follows is that if you DO NOT know what you want, for some, the answer is Aikido or TKD or Tai Chi or whatever. When was the last time you saw this?

    To take an example that i saw yesterday was a thread in newbie town where a kid was specifically looking for a "graceful" dance-like art and uninterested in self defense. What people were recommending was MT, Judo, and BJJ.

    That is bullshido.
    Last edited by PirateJon; 11/14/2006 11:27am at .
    You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.
  6. Axelton is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 11:26am


     Style: Wing Chun, Hung Gar

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "What people were recommending was MT, Judo, and BJJ."

    Lol, well thats how we are at bullshido, trying to save people from wushu since 1998.
  7. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 1:28pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Elvis
    There's no way I can continue to fight full contact into my older years. I'm only in my mid thirties and my body is already wrecked. I'd rather be a limber 80+ year old man doing yoga and tai chi on the beach in Costa Rica then some tard who can't walk without a walker with an oxygen tank strapped on.

    *************

    I hear you. I took aikido for two years mainly for the chicks. I had no illusion about it's fighting ability. For that I took BJJ, MT, Wrestling, Boxing etc. When I'm old and don't have the ability or the will to take harder styles I may just mess around with some of this pansy ****. Everything has its time and place.
    I dread your words, dude. I'm 38, and I'm already feeling it (lower back and wrists.) I wonder what I will do when I can't do physically rigorous **** anymore :eusa_thin
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

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  8. hvyhands81 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 3:05pm


     Style: Isshinryu, goju, japJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa
    You're funny.
    Usually, but i was being serious.

    As long as your not running your mouth, why would I care what art you practice? be it TKD, Wu Shu, Ballet, or Tap.
  9. Axelton is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 3:08pm


     Style: Wing Chun, Hung Gar

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    I dread your words, dude. I'm 38, and I'm already feeling it (lower back and wrists.) I wonder what I will do when I can't do physically rigorous **** anymore :eusa_thin
    no worries macho. you can always do Aikido when your old and frail. then you can wear magic pants!
  10. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 3:24pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I chose the comedy option because picturing ducks in hats made me smile right away. Besides, I could honestly care less what specific MA a particular person CHOOSES to do. Whatever floats your boat. However, mischaracterization of an "art" as being combat effective in reality can be a cancer that affects the brain of any MAist regardless of style.

    As long as you are realistic and are not disillusioned, or worse, indoctrinated, into your instructor/sifu/shihan/sensie's dogma (should they be spitting some) who cares what style you do for your HOBBY.
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