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  1. Choke is offline

    The REAL thread killer

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    South Florida
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    Posted On:
    7/27/2003 12:50am


     Style: World 10-3 Ryu Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know, i know Blade. I couldn't help myself! It'll come down in a few days.

    _______________________________________
    Boxing is boxing - all boxers box when they box, they train to boxing for boxing matches - get it? - Blade Windu 7/25/03
    "The longer I live the more I see that I am never wrong about anything, and that all the pains that I have so humbly taken to verify my notions have only wasted my time."

    -- George Bernard Shaw
  2. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    7/27/2003 11:06pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wrestling was in the Greek Olympics before the Shaolin monks were born.. along with boxing and pankration. I don't know if old = traditional though.

    Define traditional.
  3. Mercurius is offline
    Mercurius's Avatar

    Wandering Daoist

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2003 2:09am

    supporting member
     Style: Karate, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wait for the day one hundred years in the future when the UFC has become an all-grappling competition and some oik comes along and wins because he does this thing where he takes the knuckles on his hand and projects them very quickly into his opponents' face, catching them completely off guard as they are trained entirely in submission and submission defense. I predict, then, that Blade Windu's great grandson will argue telepathically that "striking is clearly superior to grappling" and that "if a BJJ player beats a Ving Tzun fighter, he's not really doing BJJ."


    Also, Anthony, I haven't seen GJJ in Action, but I find it fair conjecture that neither of the parties intended to severely injure their opponents. Also, you talk about punching from the mount as if it were the domain of a grappler, considering how only grapplers have the mystical ki power (a blind reverence seen in grappling adherents previously only known to traditional strikers) to end up on top of an opponent when both are on the ground, when this is not the case.

    At any rate, the question is of effectiveness, and effectiveness has to have a context. In the ring, grappling is effective, because the parties have no intent to kill each other and there are rules, written or otherwise. Thus, striking is neutered in the ring, despite its advantages in other fora, and with the help of bullshit like "95% of fights go to the ground" (when "fights" are police activity and "go to the ground" is an arrest being made), people get the gross misconception that grappling is 'more effective' than striking.

    Sure, at the end of the day, I agree with kuntaokid, that the best fighers need to know enough of both to get along. But until the nutrider is extinct, he needs an ideological counterbalance, which I am obliged to supply.
    "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
  4. Kempocos is offline

    Welterweight

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    Dec 2002
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    Posted On:
    7/28/2003 8:47am

    supporting member
     Style: SECRET DEADLY

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Since all the moves in BJJ can be found in asian arts perhaps BJJ is a TMA. Damn am I thinking out loud again. A TMA who can not adapt to a grappler/striker/weapon has not been training correctly and should beat his /her instructor with something heavy for stealing there money

    In the fog of doubt and bad technique, pain clears the view to proper technique.
    ----------------------------------------
    After reading Jekyll's threads I bring back an old sig.......

    Do you really train or just bore people on message boards and parties talking about it.
  5. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2003 8:58am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Merc,
    Very funny...and true, but the nutrider HAS a counterbalance. Go read some of the recent posts in the TMA forum. And it's only fair to point out that the rules to which you refer also include stand-ups and timed rounds, which only hurts the grappler immensely. Look at Genki Sudo's recent fight against Duane Ludwig.

    In any case, this is a totally dessicated subject. You shouldn't even stoop to it. just be yourself Merc, don't worry about being a counterbalance...Come on guy! *Friendly punch in the shoulder* Give us a *cough*!

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  6. Amir is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2003 10:13am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The same boring argument once again

    Can't anyone here find something more interesting ?

    Wrestling isn't superior to TMA, the wrestlers commonly are superior to the TMA practitioner. Just like you wouldn't beat a professional racing driver in a race or an Olympic swimmer in a swimming race (even if it were in the ocean).

    99.9% of the TMA people (I am not including Judo in this context) train as amateurs, of the 0.1% that remains at least 99% train to become teachers not fighters. On the other hand, in the martial sports - Wrestling, Boxing, Judo. There are athletes training to win a fight, they are working at it much harder. Only the best talented among them remain as the coaches have no interest in teaching "low potential" students.

    This gives those professional a great advantage over the amateur. After all, the techniques are very similar, and the same principles apply. So the better trained man has the best chance of winning, and in most cases, this would be the athlete.


    Amir
  7. fuzzie is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2003 10:50am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Defining traditional.. Well in my book a TMA is a MA that will not change despite
    evidence of better more efficiant techniques. A TMA keeps its "moves" because
    thats how it has always been done, and thats how it always should be done.

    Example.. traditional karate punching vs. a boxers right cross.
    No contest.

    1995's two-leg takedown, pushing your opponent backwards. This technique has
    been replaced by the two-leg takedown pushing your opponent to the side,
    so instead of ending up in guard, you end up in side-control. A TMA wouldnt
    change this technique. Because grandmaster Chi-Hard-Wang said the original was
    best.

    Well, thats how i define traditional in the MA.



    Edited by - fuzzie on July 28 2003 10:55:15
  8. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2003 12:53pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fuzzie has the same definition that I do.

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  9. fuzzie is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2003 1:27pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fuzzie has the same definition that I do.
    Woo! I feel an omnipotent surge of Ego rising inside me!
    Yup. Me and Wastrel agree about it. Yup yup.
    Ill just go and tell everyone in every topic now. Yup.
    Me and Wastrel. Yup. Thats the ticket.
  10. Fisting Kittens is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2003 1:49pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with Merc to a point. In a full on confrontation with intent to kill or maim, I will rely 100% on my striking training. But I still do judo and BJJ. why? Well most encounters in which I will need to use my training will be better ended via grappling than stirking. When I get into a fight in a bar, do I want to maim him or just choke him out? Even that mugger is better choked out or armlocked than killed. Never play around with the moronic juries these days.

    So I think that the argument that stikers are neutered in the ring is tired too, but for different reasons. I think its correct, but realistically outside of a battlefield, if a striker can't fight well without his super fucked up maim and kill techniques than he is poorly prepared for any real world encounter anyway.

    ---------
    I have discovered the true essence of Bullshido: To crush your enemies. See them driven before you. And hear the lamentation of their women.
    In short: to flame.
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