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  1. silentpain is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2003 2:46am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Does wrestling really OWN the traditional arts?

    This is only a question ive wondered about for a while now.If you learned and train a traditional martial art,which also includes weapons,why would any of the traditional martial arists go fist to fist with a more powerful(muscular) oppenent?Isnt that wasting half of your training?Most wrestling,BBJ,and other gyms dont teach how to defend half of the weapons we use.Screw being nice,if i had to fight im bringing my weapons.There are so many things than would give such stylists a really hard time.Swords,spears,hell even butterfly knives.Why fight fist to fist?So why do all the TMA's try to justify they can beat a stronger hand to hand system,screw it,use your damn weapon training.It sure worked on the battle field.
  2. Skummer is offline

    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2003 3:13am

    supporting member
     Style: Taiji/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You fight with your fists because anything more will almost certainly land you in jail unless your opponent is also armed. It's not about mean or nice, it's about survival, which includes your legal survival.

    As to wrestling owning tma... Most tma guys don't train worth a flip, so yeah, a competant wrestler's gonna mete out some cold justice on his tma ass. However, if you do karate, jujutsu, or even v/wing ts/chun, AND you train realistically against varying opponents in varying situations, as well as testing yourself agianst other styles, you should do fine against the same ol every day wrestler.

    In short, your forms won't beat a wrestler, your theories won't beat a wrestler, and your chi damn sure won't beat a wrestler.
    Train as reastically as possible regardless of style and make certain you can actually do what you THINK you can do.







    - Skummer -

    If you think you can speak about Tao, it is clear you don't know what you're talking about.
    -Lao Tzu

    Edited by - skummer on July 26 2003 03:20:30
  3. Mercurius is offline
    Mercurius's Avatar

    Wandering Daoist

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2003 3:32am

    supporting member
     Style: Karate, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Much of the reason grappling beats traditional striking in a ring is that the entire format of the contest gives an advantage to the grappler, because his techniques are more readily adaptable to submitting an opponent, whereas a striker, restrained not only from the much maligned palm strikes to the nose and eye rakes, is also robbed of other potentially lethal attacks to vulnerable targets, whereas the wrestler is free to use any weapon in his arsenal against any legal target--I find not being able to break a man's wrist no fair trade-off for not being able to pull his hair back and chop him in the throat in terms of gauging the effectiveness of an art in uncontrolled conditions.

    Getting closer back to the original topic, I think if you get into a fight carrying numchucks, it's going to look bad in front of a jury, especially if your attacker's lawyer is skilled at making him look like the victim who mistakenly enraged someone with a hair-trigger temper and severe lack of restraint.
    "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
  4. Pandinha is offline

    Administrator

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2003 5:28am

    supporting memberhall of famestaff
     Style: Muay Thai & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Merc,

    I present articles of evidence Gracie Jiu Jitsu Volumes 1, 2, and 3.

    No holds barred, anything goes. Hard to pull that head back and chop the throat when you are mounted and receiving numerous punches to the face and body.



    ==================
    "When we go to the ground, you are in my world. The ground is the ocean, I am the shark, and most people don't even know how to swim." RCJ Machado
    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
    "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".
  5. IndoChinese is offline

    AKAKTK

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2003 9:05am


     Style: Liu Seong Gung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    most traditionalists are ill equipped to deal with 'shoot' and grapples. but a little distinction needs to made here.

    the traditional arts that focus purely/primarily on striking without utilizing chinna and 'bodylocking' work, are the ones who suffer from this vulnerability.

    simply because they are unfamiliar with the technology. a western boxer would be in the same category.

    on the other hand, many arts have a strong emphasis on grappling and control of structure.


    oh btw, haven't you guys figured out yet that you need to know how to strike and grapple in a cohesive and cosupportive method? all of this ranting about striking v.s. grappling indicates that you have yet to realize the true nature of systemized martial training.


    i can fight upright to the ground and up the nearest tree if need be. i throw dirt, bricks, and knives. i use jumping, rolling, tackling, combos, flurries, and a strident desire to break your focking spine in two as my system. if i find that i dont simply outclass you, which is normally the case, then i will cheat, lie, and steal to win.

    the real bullshido is this mentality of this v.s. that. rampant around here.



    peace.

    <marquee>REDANTKUNTAO</marquee>
    <marquee> INDONESIAN GUNG FU</marquee>
  6. TheHungsta is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2003 10:00am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you take martial arts to use weapons like swords and spears for self defense, you might as well invest in a gun.
  7. Matt W. is offline
    Matt W.'s Avatar

    Community Corrections Officer

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2003 10:54am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If I have a weapon it's going to be a gun. If I don't have a gun, it's because I can't have a weapon in that place/circumstance. So if we're in a place where you can have your butterfly swords, I'm shooting you. And if were're not, then you'd better know how to fight on the ground.

    And Merc, could you pull out anti-grappling arguments that are any more cliche' (and answered a hundred times)? I mean, do you really believe that stuff?

    Regards,
    Matt

    Carl: So, where we goin'?
    Lenny: Ape Island. I hate Ape Island!
    Carl: Why's that?
    Lenny: It's full of giant apes. I wish we were going to Candy Apple Island!
    Carl: Why? What's on Candy Apple Island?
    Lenny: Apes. But they're not as big.
  8. LLL is offline

    X

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2003 3:53pm

    supporting member
     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wrestling ISN'T a traditional martial art? I thought that was the most traditional in pretty much every country in existence (& in many that aren't anymore)...
  9. Choke is offline

    The REAL thread killer

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2003 12:36am


     Style: World 10-3 Ryu Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Wrestling ISN'T a traditional martial art? I thought that was the most traditional in pretty much every country in existence (& in many that aren't anymore)..."

    If it works in the ring there is no way it can be a TMA!!! Get with the program, n0ob!!!!!!!

    _______________________________________
    Boxing is boxing - all boxers box when they box, they train to boxing for boxing matches - get it? - Blade Windu 7/25/03
    "The longer I live the more I see that I am never wrong about anything, and that all the pains that I have so humbly taken to verify my notions have only wasted my time."

    -- George Bernard Shaw
  10. Blad3 is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2003 12:45am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Submission Wrestling.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    LOL Choke. i was seriously tired when i wrote that and i was totally joking.

    "If you don't know how to Grapple/Wrestle you don't know how to fight, that's the prerequisite to fighting" David Tank Abbott
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
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