Thread: Honestly Where's Rudy Abel now ?
7/07/2009 2:50am, #21
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- Oct 2006
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You know very well what Southpaw is talking about (since months ago): the three empty hand forms of -ing -un.
And, more importantly, he's talking about the high probability of you not sparring enough - to which you didn't reply.
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7/07/2009 3:05pm, #22
Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
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7/07/2009 3:25pm, #23
I know what the hell I'm talking about.
Wing Chun does not work. Period. End of discussion.
If you want to debate this in any manner then please do. Tell me EXACTLY why you feel Wing Chun works. Name techniques, and applications, provide video of yourself, or another, performing said technique in said situation at NEAR FULL SPEED.
Do that and we can talk.I do not aspire to be great, or even good, I hope to suck a little less then last class.
7/07/2009 10:36pm, #24
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- Sep 2008
- BJJ, Judo & Boxing
Hey Flying Skull, and welcome to Bullshido.
I was a practicioner of Wing Chun for about five years. I attained a high rank and was, for a short while, an assistant instructor. I was very deeply involved with the style and the school I trained at. In November 2008 I changed to Judo and BJJ - a decision I wish I made many years earlier.
I can assure you that Wing Chun is one of the worst possible styles to train in for self-defence. Allow me to explain why:
Logically, self-defence training should prepare you in two ways:
1. Preparation for the reality of a fight. This means hard contact and full resistance. Lots of sparring. Training against a guy who is just as dedicated to beating you as you are to beating him. This prepares you for a street opponent who will be fully resisting and equally committed to winning the fight as you are. It also teaches you to handle stress, pain and adrenaline.
2. Effective techniques to use in a fight. This refers to fighting techniques that are simple, direct, have a large margin for technical error but are still extremely effective. Techniques which can be executed in the pressure and heat of a real fight, and which will actually work and do some damage.
Basically, if you want to learn to defend yourself in a fight, you need to learn how to react in a real fight using techniques which will actually work.
Generally, at pretty much all clubs/kwoons/schools, Wing Chun fails on both these accounts.
1. Wing Chun does not prepare you for the reality of a street fight. These is occasionally some sparring at Wing Chun schools, but it is never hard contact, and even then it is rare. Most Wing Chun schools do not spar or train with any resistance. Those which do spar do it irregularly and poorly. They don't allow grappling, and they make you wear gloves which means that all the Wing Chun techniques can't be used in the sparring match anyway.
Some WC schools spar every lesson. That's great, but they still don't train with resistance outside the sparring sessions. WC schools place so much emphasis on forms (such as Siu Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee, etc), wooden dummy training, and compliant drills, ALL of which are useless methods of training as they involve no feedback loop. I'll briefly explain this concept.
To learn how to swim, you need to get in the water. To learn how to drive, you need to sit behind the wheel of a car. To learn how to play tennis, you need someone to play tennis with.
This probably seems obvious, so far, so let's add the connection: each of these provide you with a feedback loop. If you're trying to learn to swim in air, you don't get the feel of how you move through the water, how you'd keep your level, how you'd breathe to avoid inhaling water. If you're trying to drive on your couch with a dinner plate, you're not going to have to deal with the turning circle, the acceleration, or the other cars on the road. If you're trying to learn how to play tennis without having an opponent, you're not going to learn the strategies of shot placement or the importance of where you position yourself.
Similarly, fighting operates exactly the same way. It's a physical skill. You need to train it with a feedback loop, in an environment which mimics some of the reality of fighting. Even if you aren't sparring, your means of training should have some sort of feedback loop. The heavy bag you kick or punch shows you how hard you are striking and provides you with an actual target, allowing you to perfect technique AND speed AND power all at once. Hitting focus mits allows you to train technique, speed, power and accuracy/co-ordination by testing you on each of these fronts. Forms and compliant drills, which comprise anywhere between 70 - 100% of a typical Wing Chun class, have none of these traits. It's a bad way to train.
2. Wing Chun does not teach you effective means of fighting. Not only does Wing Chun entirely ommit grappling (perhaps the most important element of fighting), almost completely ignore takedowns and throws (though admittedly, when I did WC I learnt the 'sweep', which was just a shitty version of an Osoto Gari), but its striking and hand techniques suck.
How can we determine whether techniques are good or not?
We test them in controlled, but very real, combat. Resisting, non-compliant opponents who are equally committed to victory. Forget about rings, UFC, MMA, competitions and all of that. Simply: is there any evidence of this technique working against a resisting opponent? For all the techniques of boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo, SAMBO, Kyokushin and Sanda/Sanshou the answer is YES, and the evidence is easy to find. Just have a look at these:
YouTube - Street fight - Marco Vs Mitch (Good Quality)!!!
YouTube - Judo VS. Boxing
YouTube - Thomas Fan BJJ vs Kung Fu Guys in Hong Kong Round 1
YouTube - Boxer vs. Kickboxer
They show the techniques being used, and they show them working. Similar examples can be found for any of the standard techniques of BJJ, Judo, boxing, Muay Thai, etc. I can find you examples if you like, just ask.
Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for Wing Chun. There is no evidence at all that 'chain punching', 'pak sao', 'lap sao', 'chin na' or any of the other techniques in Wing Chun actually work in combat.
Not only is there no evidence, but they're just plain stupid. The blocks/deflections rely on catching the incoming punch, which is amazingly difficult to do. The stance is linear and leaves you open for attacking, the footwork is unbalanced and leaves you prone to takedowns. The 'trapping range' mentality puts you in the clinch range when you don't even know how to clinch or what to do there. Chain punches are weak and lack power because they do not allow for proper hip rotation or kinetic linking. Wing Chun is nothing but illogical, crappy techniques which have survived generations of instruction because no one has ever tested them.
Boxing, Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai... these styles only teach the most effective techniques, because they have been so thoroughly refined through pressure-testing and competition. People who train in these styles regularly fight - Muay Thai fighters enter the ring several nights a week, BJJers several times a year. It doesn't matter. They train to fight, and then they actually fight, and refine their methods and techniques with what they learnt in the experience of combat. Wing Chun doesn't do this at all.
7/08/2009 11:43am, #25
- Join Date
- May 2008
We have a winnah: RASK..
Aussies are awesome as always.
OP: Now you get the idea why Chun is a very thorny issue here.
Since you are familiar with the basics, how about you go and take a look at some other CMA which are respected here; Sanda/Hung Gar ?
I was a 4 year Chun practitioner and I am a lawyer/academics mentioned above, so I assure you that most of the Chunners are wasting their times.
No BS Martial Arts - View Single Post - My friend said that tkd was better than boxing..
Last edited by reindo; 7/08/2009 11:49am at .
11/15/2011 9:55pm, #26
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Wing Chun Instructors
Real Wing Chun is hard to find, there are only three instructors in the state of California that are properly trained. One of them lives only 8 miles from Palm Springs. His primary school is in Desert Hot Springs with another school in Palm Desert.
If you manage to find real Wing Chun, you will be prepared for almost any combat situation.
11/15/2011 10:10pm, #27
Now, I've taken the time to visit IWC Combat's website and therefore know that if you're the Dan Anderson, you're an intelligent guy so, take the time to read the policies for posting on this website and please, don't go looking for age old threads which have been long forgotten with the intent of necroing them with relatively worthless information.
Now, finally, you've made a fairly bold claim with your last statement and one I suspect you're going to get called on so, I'll start by suggesting you need to provide some tangible evidence to support that claim.
Can you provide such evidence?"To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".
11/16/2011 3:29am, #28
11/16/2011 5:45am, #29
Last edited by Ignorami; 11/16/2011 5:50am at .
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11/16/2011 8:46am, #30
What this illustrates is that even smart people can be stupid.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk"To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".