Ok, I think I'm done here. Thanks for the advice, I was coming to the same conclusion that I need to relax, step away and let the powers that be make an assessment of the facts. Yes, I've put some time into this to substantiate a gut feeling. I think what really got me going was the claim of four 10th Dans and 50,000 fights. I think it's a damn lie.
And Sam did challenge me, and I shouldn't have said he was being emotional. Sorry for that Sam. But I'm glad he did, although it took a bunch of hours to dig up all this stuff that is current. As for the old black belt rumor, I should not have posted it, although, after finding all this other dirt, I now think it is true. But Sam was right on that too, it is not first hand information.
I realize now I did sound like I wanted my cool aid and to be accepted at face value. That was stupid of me. But I didn't want Phrost's job :-) I should have lurked a bit and learned the rules before I posted. And that's unfortunate for everyone, because underneath this acrimonious debate which kept this from being taken seriously, I think there is something very wrong with John M. Latourrette's claims, and even more wrong with why he is making them.
Anyway, I wish I done a better job with this from the beginning.
It indeed appears that there may be. So put your research, documents and ducks in a row.
Originally Posted by botunga
Jonas, I did review the link you provided to the thread on Gene Ching. It was very helpful in understanding how some have used this forum to unfounded accusations. Also, it really pointed out the differences between Gene Ching, who appears to be claiming to be nothing more than he is, which seems to be a pretty darn good writer.......and the apparently wildly inflated dubious claims being made by John M. Latourrette. It was a stark contrast.
Never too late as far as I'm concerned - I think the speedhitter is full of crap, but I never thought it was worth my time to disprove the obvious BS. I kinda share James Randi's attitude regarding Breatharians when it comes to stuff like this.
I wish I done a better job with this from the beginning.
-- From the FAQs on Randi's JREF site - http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#2.3
There are some claims that are far too implausible to warrant any serious examination, such as the "Breatharian" claims in which the applicant states that he can survive without food or water. Science conclusively tells us all we need to know about such matters, and the JREF feels no obligation to engage applicants in such delusions.
However, if "Breatharians" started attracting a followings and generating lots of $$, Randi might feel obliged to dedicate a "FAQ" essay or two to them. He may not actively pursue them.
So, again, a good thread summarizing the evidences would serve a purpose. Good investigatory threads are calm, cool, with just a hint of sacrasm here and there.
Victims of such are not generally versed in actual martial arts--they are chasing the dream of wisdom and/or "t3h d34dly." Such will really not read through a screed. Furthermore, they will then more likely believe a cult leader's excuses--"they are jealous/immature/MEANIES!!"
Is John M. LaTourrette REALLY A Lying Sack of ****?
Yes, I think he is a liar, and here are the facts to prove he’s a liar and a fraud. John M. LaTourette likes to be called Doc, or Dr. John M. LaTourette, and is also goes under the aliases of (to name a few) Jack Williams, Sam Fagone, Sandy Godheart, and Joy Radiant (I’ll explain later why he sometimes falsely impersonates a woman on the internet, as to the best of my knowledge he has not had a sex change operation).
This is going to be a summary post, and I’m going to try to by as brief as possibly without leaving out anything important.
First, before getting into the main issues, I want to take a minute to deal with the rumor I mentioned earlier regarding the problems he had with his black belts. There are far more serious issues with LaTourette, so let’s get this out of the way. I think I heard the rumor at the 1997 Gathering of Eagles in Las Vegas. While I can’t remember who I was talking to as I met so many people there, I can say that I remember it just seemed like it was true. We were just a bunch of martial artists talking shop, and the subject of the so-called Speedman came up. Someone there knew one or more of his black belts, and had heard from them that John LaTourette had taken money from them for seminars, lessons, and consultations for their schools, but never lived up to his end of the bargain. Perhaps that is not stealing, but it is in a way. However, I have no proof. I believe, based on everything I’m going to show below, that the story is very probably true. If anyone out there reading this knows something about this, please, jump in on this thread and share it with us! In fact, I would appreciate anyone with any knowledge about LaTourette’s claims to contribute here.
Now, here is what I do know about John M. LaTourette’s very dubious and outlandish claims, lies, and distortions. Where is the proof for his outlandish claims? Much of the evidence in this investigation is circumstantial and is based on the application of reason, both of which are admissible in court. I hope to show here his pattern of lies and deceptions, and also to try to explain why he’s doing this. Actually that part is pretty easy to figure out, as I intend to prove all of his inflated claims and other self-aggrandizing statements are designed to do one thing and one thing only: to dupe gullible suckers into buying his wildly overpriced DVD courses, manuals, and seminars.
1. He is now claiming that he has FOUR 10th Degree Black Belts. I can find no evidence to support any conclusion other than that he promoted himself. He claims a 10th Dan in World Kenpo, but there is no listing of this anywhere I could find. As for the other 2, I have no idea. More importantly though is that I have never heard of anyone possessing more than one earned 10th Dan ever in the history of martial arts. If someone can refute this, please post the proof. So, who promoted LaTourette to 4 10th Dans? Did he earn them? Where is the proof? The highest rank LaTourette attained that I could find is an 8th Dan under Al Tracy. Now, if Al Tracy, who is one of the most, respected grandmasters of our time, promoted him to 8th, that’s good enough for me. But why did John LaTourette have to inflate his rank? His rank claims are so outrageous that they can be reasonably assumed to be fraud and misrepresentation.
2. He claims he has “19 other Black Belts” in addition to the four 10th Dans. Where did he EARN them? What styles? Who promoted him? Once again, this claim can be assumed to be fraudulent based on a reasonable analysis of the situation. Does anyone on this forum have anywhere closed to that many Black Belts? Can anyone here point to anyone else in the martial arts that has performed a similar feat? Anyone can print up a bunch of Black Belt certificates, but I think most of us are only interested in the ones that were earned from a legitimate instructor.
3. He claims “I've trained more than 38,000 people in my martial arts schools, WITHOUT counting all the people that have bought my books, videos and special reports." (And in fact claims to have taught 40,000 students in a separate advertisement). Even if he’s been teaching for 40 years, that would be 1000 new students taught each year. This is not realistic. Does anyone know of any instructor who has actually trained that many people in their lifetime? I think this claim is pure bullshit. And, if he has trained so many, where are his black belts? Forget for a minute anything about the rumor about some problems he had with his black belts some years back. For right now, let’s just ask ourselves where ANY of his black belts are? Does anyone know? Where are his schools and where are they listed? I could find no black belts or schools. Does anyone know? All I could find out was he had a small school in Medford, Oregon some years ago, but that is no longer listed either. Yes, sure seems like he is a lying sack of ****.
4. He states on his Speedhitting group on Yahoo http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group...sentialskills/ “I’ve fought more than 50,000 times over the past 56 years.” Does this guy have multiple personalities? How could anyone fight that many times? It can be reasonably assumed this claim is fraudulent. Let’s do the math folks: if he fought every day of his life and he is 60 years old, that would only be 21,900 fights. And does anyone know any martial artist anywhere who has fought every day of their life? No, I didn’t think so.
5. He claims he has “martial arts expertise acquired over 56 yrs in the arts and fighting & Training civilians, cops, bikers, boozers, fanatics in Asia, Europe, Mexico,
the United States and Canada. " Hey, he's apparently fighting terrorists (fanatics?) on several continents. But who was he working for? When did he fight fanatics? Does his military service record support this claim? Is he saying he was a mercenary? He claims he was a translator in Korea. How many translators see the kind of combat John M. LaTourette is claiming? I think he’s lying. And he’s a coward for claiming this if it isn’t true. Lots of real combat veteran have lost their lives doing the fighting he claims to have done. This is disgusting.
6. He states “At the age of 32 he quit drinking. He retired a millionaire four years later at the age of 36”. Really? Where is the proof he was a millionaire at age 36? Let’s see audited financial statements that prove this. I think this phony claim is made to get more suckers to buy his get rich quick schemes he teaches in his seminars. If anyone shows up on here claiming John M. LaTourette made you rich, be prepared to submit audited financial statements yourself. I suspect LaTourette has been using fake testimonials, so don’t try this **** unless you can prove it.
7. He claimed on his Yahoo group Healing-energies that he can cure cancer with “a simple breathing technique”. Where are the scientific, accredited studies proving this is true? What are his medical credentials? I don’t think he has any, but perhaps someone has some documentation? He is at best a charlatan claiming unfounded cures and charging money for this, and at worst a criminal huckster who could possibly fool someone into not getting the real medical care they need.
8. And, what about the so-called Ph.D which John LaTourette has claimed from a degree mill called Columbia Pacific University, (which has since been found to be operating illegally and forced to close down)? Check out http://www.quackwatch.org/04Consumer.../News/cpu.html. He has defended it with such bluster on other internet forums under the guise that it is “approved”. Well, from what I’ve been able to discover, it was in fact approved by the State of California at the time it was given to him. Let’s look at this claim a little deeper though. The fact is the degree mill was never accredited. His Ph.D was never validated by any peer review process, as is required in any rigorous academic program. He never performed any properly structured research studies, and never published any results in any professional journal that I could find on any search engine. So where the **** does this asshole get the idea that he has the right to claim a Ph.D in Sports Psychology?
9. For a paltry sum to a used book dealer, I was able to obtain a used but readable copy of his so called dissertation which does appear to be authored by him. In order to be fair, I wanted to find out just what all the debate about his Ph.D claim was about. His “dissertation” is nothing but a bunch of pop pseudo psychology (a mixture of Brian Tracy, NLP, Tony Robbins, and some of his own karate books). This treatise on positive thinking type bullshit is not in the format of any normally acceptable Ph.D dissertation. Notably lacking is any attempt at original research.
10. So based on a California decision that was probably political in nature, he bases his claim for a Ph.D on the idea it was “approved”. Well, while it may be barely legal so he can get away with it, it is not valid. Yet he insists it his right to call himself Dr. John M. LaTourette. But why is this so important to him? I think it is because it gives him the mantle of superiority that he craves so much, as it gets more suckers to pay him money. And, if his claims of being a Sports Psychologist are untrue, then he is committing fraud even if his Ph.D is “approved”. Where, we might ask, is his professional license in the state of Oregon where he lives, or any other state, to practice psychology? Isn’t it illegal to practice without a license?
Now, I mentioned earlier that he has been impersonating other people, including women on his Yahoo Groups. And yes, I have the proof that the posts originated from him, both by language pattern and by posting trails. Let’s see him come on here and try to prove he didn’t. The reason he has been doing all this is to drum up business for himself by using fake aliases to give himself glowing praise from various sources, including women! This clever scheme of fraud and deceit also means that no one is ever allowed to post anything critical or negative about this asshole on any of his groups. If you do, he kicks you off the group. He’s a fucking dictator, out to enrich himself. John M. LaTourette has 4 Yahoo Groups that I was able to find. You need to join the groups and have each post approved if you want to post.
Based on the information I have presented here, I think John M. LaTourette is very probably a lying sack of ****. But it’s more than that. What I also think is he is a very clever huckster who manipulates others by taking a grain of truth and wildly inflating it. Always with the same objective: lining his own pockets. What is most disturbing is the cult like effect his fraudulent claims have on the gullible, many of whom seem to be ready to lick his boots and defend him no matter what. If they want to do this on this forum, let them bring documented proof.
Well, this concludes my summary of the information about John M. LaTourette. If anyone can add to this or supply more detail on any of this it would be greatly appreciated.
Last edited by botunga; 12/04/2006 2:00pm at .
I did neglect to mention his web sites, or more precisely, his former web sites, as it has been verified that all 4 of Dr. John Latourrette's web sites are shut down. Now, Yahoo Domain Abuse shut them down as I understand it. All Yahoo will say is "they took the appropriate action". (Translation = they shut his ass down)
Yahoo also shut down his associates web site, www.mindcontrolcentral.com, where he was hyping his Mafia Hit Man Course and How To Seduce Her While She Sleeps DVD set.
What is interesting is that LaTourrette is now telling everyone that he closed them down himself so he could redo them. Bullshit. He wouldn't do anything that would keep him from getting more of what he loves most, the money.
I won't go into the content of the site, it was well covered by another poster in an article on Bullshido, so I'll just link to it. http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...12#comment1499
As I remember this **** head was selling something on the site that promised an 8 hour erection, and called it Energy Viagra. Let's all see if we can still get some. Will I even be able to get dressed in the morning? Down boy. Down. God damn it I said down! Now. Perhaps his FDA approval application is awaiting approval by the Energy Board.
He needs to be kicked to sleep just for this claim alone...
7. He claimed on his Yahoo group Healing-energies that he can cure cancer with “a simple breathing technique”.
An 8 hour erection? Damn...and viagra tells you to call a doctor after 4 hours. Of course, if I had a 4 hour erection, I'd be calling EVERYBODY! "Hello, Rabbi Schwartz? You're not going to believe this..."
Seriously, botunga, I think you have a lot of potential claims to verify. For what it's worth, I would suggest focusing on direct evidence (the degree and the 19 black belts) that it may be possibly to actually disprove. Logic tells us that 50,000 fights (by the common definition) is impossible, but while this may be easy to discredit, it may be difficult to disprove.
I'm willing to help out should you need it (the cancer thing *really* pissed me off), but you seem to have it in hand. What kind of help, if any, would you like?
Thanks OnceLost. At this point, the answer is I'd like all the help I can get. Mostly, as you suggested, in the area of verifying what I've found, disproving John M. La Tourrette's claims, and bringing in any new information. We're going to need some direction though from the more senior staff members like Sam and JD who've been helping to keep this on track.
Originally Posted by OnceLost
Can you list the styles he's claiming a BB in? I reviewed the thread but didn't find them listed, and our internet at work blocks a lot of MA stuff out as "Occult or Non-Traditional Religion."
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