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  1. oldslowguy is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2007 9:29am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Tracy Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey, you guys wanted some sort of proof and I gave you a story as "anecdotal and unsubstantiated" as it was.

    Botunga: I never trained at those schools who told me to slow down. I moved around a lot and found many schools lacking. After practicing the speed hitting, my speed did increase but I never was better than my teachers. Perhaps I wasn't clear.

    As for the Ph.D. discussion...Ph.Ds are like black belts, some are truely Ph.D.s and some are bullshido.

    I'm not LaTourette or one of his followers. I simply recognized his name on the thread in the recent newsletter and thought I'd add my 2 cents. If you read my original post, I didn't endorse the man only the concept. I didn't care for his book since it didn't go very deep into concepts and had little substance. Personnally, I didn't care for his writing style and to compare mine to his was probably the biggest insult in the thread. It's a good thing I have thick skin.

    I guess my point is that you wanted proof, but nothing short of LaTourette comming to your house and first beating the crap out of you and then healing you with his Huna magic would be adequate. I'm wondering if that would even be proof enough. It seems fishy that you are so quick to discount anything positive about speed hitting by attacking the person. I gave examples and all you can do is say that either I'm him or one of the cult followers. I give a story and it's "unsubstantial". I give my facts about my improved skills and it's "outrageous claims".

    Maybe botunga has a beef with LaTourette:
    -He joined on 10/06,
    -Posted this thread on 10/06,
    -Cited other links about scams all with threads started on 10/06 by someone who joined on 10/06,
    -Writing styles are the same on all threads from the thread initiator, and
    -Always discounting other's testimony by accusing them to be a follower or an alias
      #1001
  2. Red512S is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2007 2:12am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "I guess my point is that you wanted proof, but nothing short of LaTourette comming to your house and first beating the crap out of you and then healing you with his Huna magic would be adequate. I'm wondering if that would even be proof enough."

    No, as has been stated countless times on this website, in general some video support is necessary to substantiate claims. In general, using the techniques on a fully resisting opponent effectively can give some insight. This is the internet, and it's very easy to make claims and never actually prove them. What you called "proof" really wasn't proof. Nobody is asking for La Tourrette himself to come out and fight, just concrete examples of his techniques working on someone who's not his student or just standing there taking it.

    Dave
      #1002
  3. oldslowguy is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2007 1:01pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Tracy Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your absolutely right. Unfortunately that is the problem with 90% of all martial arts techniques. Either they can't be performed in practice at full force against a resisting opponent because they're too dangerous or they can't work in real situations because it appears effective in practice.

    A prime example is an eye strike. You can't practice that against an opponent in a gym. We know it works since a simple grain of dust in your eye results in involuntary actions (cupping your eye, blinking, watering eyes, etc.) making you uncapable of fighting effectively (unless you're VanDamn in Bloodsport).

    The trick with most techniques is that the opponent must be unsuspecting/unresisting of the attack (or counter attack). Take for example a straight on wrist grab. A simple escape is to pull the wrist out against the opponents thumb. Works well unless the opponent resists. If that happens, you either soften them up first or roll the wrist the opposite direction into a wrist lock.

    Part of what makes speed hitting effective is the element of suprise. The concept of critical distance (the distance at which your action is faster than your opponents reaction) that I taught in kenpo along with deceptive body and hand positioning can allow you to get that initial strike which will allow multiple follow-on attacks if done in quick succession.

    Speed hitting can be effective when utilizing the element of suprise or softening the opponent first. It won't work well in the ring because nerve/cavity strikes are not allowed and the opponent is prepaired. However, if a jab can land in the ring against a suspecting opponent with their guard up, an eye strike could do the same with match ending results.

    Self defense situations could be categorized into several generic engagement conditions.
    1) You and your opponent are prepaired for the fight-not desirable since it could be avoided and you are on even ground
    2) You are unsuspecting and the opponent is prepaired-really not desirable
    3) You are prepaired and the opponent is unsuspecting-best condition to engage the attacker.

    The 3rd case is either when you attack first or your opponent thinks you to be unprepaired when you counter. The speed hitting utilizes deceptive concepts such that you are prepared (without appearing to be) prior to the start of the fight. It's amazing how close you can position your hands in normal hand gestures when talking with a hostile person.

    I believe speed fighting is effective and some of the concepts LaTourette teaches. But as with any martial art, it should be complimented by other styles. I cannot attest to the personal character of LaTourette, since I never met the man. As with most martial art schools, there is a business aspect and a good businessman will emphasize their background (regardless of how a Ph.D. was obtained) if it helps make the sale.
      #1003
  4. botunga is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2007 10:49pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oldslowguy
    Maybe botunga has a beef with LaTourette:
    -He joined on 10/06,
    -Posted this thread on 10/06,
    -Cited other links about scams all with threads started on 10/06 by someone who joined on 10/06,
    -Writing styles are the same on all threads from the thread initiator, and
    -Always discounting other's testimony by accusing them to be a follower or an alias
    Ok, oldslowguy, touche. But my purpose was not to trade insults with you, but to point out the possibility that he could post here under an alias, as he has done in many other groups and forums. If you are not him, then you are not. It is still possible.

    As for my so-called beef, read the thread, I addressed this long ago. I never paid any attention to the timing of other posts or threads that you mention. I have to admit, it is possible the other information influenced my opinion, and I see nothing in your post that has changed my opinion that LaTourrette is a charlatan, and that speedhitting is bullshit. And, from John LaTourrette's videos he posted on YouTube, he is a real asshole to boot. I don't think he's a good businessman, unless being a liar makes someone a good businessman in your opinion.

    Alas, while you have posted a very long reply, there is still nothing in the way of proof of John M. LaTourrette's very suspicious claims contained therin. Now, you claim you have "never met him". If that is true, then you really don't have any proof to offer either.

    If John M. LaTourrette is so wonderful, why, using your date of 10/2006 has this sleaze failed to respond in nearly a year to repeated requests for him to provide proof of his claims? Isn't that his responsibility?
      #1004
  5. oldslowguy is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2007 11:33pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Tracy Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As I mentioned before. I cannot attest to the personal character of this LaTourette guy. I believe some of his concepts/training methods that he taught in the book and video I got were useful and I did benefit from them. As for the business aspect, I never said his business is ethical. If you go to any dojo, undoubtedly you'll find yourself getting a sales pitch. They'll exploit their foriegn nationality, accents, wearing black belts that look to have been washed too many times and drug behind a pickup truck, pictures of famous martial artists (whom they most likely never trained with), walls full of trophies (which they bought for an inter-school tournament), weapons on the wall which they don't know how to use, perhaps a few Aisian paintings or words, and any certifications in physical therapy/sports medicine or even adult education. It shouldn't seem shocking that he exploits his Ph.D. to help sell his product regardless of the status of the institution that gave him the degree. Maybe you could compare his use of his Ph.D. to Bowflex sporting some model who claims to get that way using only a Boxflex, or Chuck Norris peddeling his TotalGym.

    I merely wanted to point out that some of the speed hitting concepts are effective and at worst no less effective that what you'd get from any striking school out there.
      #1005
  6. laughingmonkey is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 7:58am


     Style: running

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dear botunga,

    I generally don't post as I don't have formal training and all I have to offer are anecdotes about fighting which makes me a bit useless on bullshido, but for some reason there is a glitch going on that has made it so far impossible for me to unsubscribe from this thread so I thought I'd go with the flow and actually say what I've been thinking.

    Tourette is a big ole' looney. I'm totally convinced. You've done your job well, though anyone with half a brain can spot his lunacy from quite a distance. Which brings me to my point: What is your point? Exposing fraud is valuable of course but really, his fraud is not that well camouflaged in the first place. Do you want to destroy this man's livelyhood? He makes money out of bullshit no doubt but he has a family to feed. He's a lying nut but really, beyond documenting this for a laugh, which you've done quite well I'm wondering where you're going with this thread. Is he really hurting anyone? Surely he deserves our sympathy more than anything. Bags not being him that's for sure but your vehemence towards the guy makes me feel sorry for him. He probably believes in himself and his kids probably look up to him. He's probably on speed or has done allot of psychedelics and is most likely not the most secure of individuals which makes him a bit of an easy target. Why don't you go and meet him? Take it to his face if your so hell bent on attacking him. Sure, you'll find some broken person with delusions of granduer but do you really want to hurt the man? There are much worse people in the world in my experience.

    I guess I'm just saying that being so aggressive towards someone so pathetic is really a bit redundant.

    Anyhow, just my reaction to the thread.

    Dissapearing back into obscurity......................NOW.

    LM
    Last edited by laughingmonkey; 9/04/2007 8:00am at .
      #1006
  7. botunga is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 10:59am


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oldslowguy,Your point of view is well taken. John M. LaTourrette's use of a fake Ph.D in advertising, and then more lies claiming all kinds of superhuman mental skills including magic, isn't that far removed from some of the other questionable activities engaged by others in to aid in the sale of martial arts services and products that don't come close to meeting their advertised claims. It is still my opinion that LaTourrette's use of a false academic credential is stepping way over the line. In addition, his ricidulous claims of 20 plus black belts, and four 10th black belts, seem to me to give him the appearance of being a major liar, instead of just engaging in some puffery.

    As for the speed-hitting, maybe, with your diverse and deep martial arts background, you've been able to add a few concepts to your repetoire. The outrageous and phony claims made by John LaTourrette are the problem, and I doubt most people would be able to have the depth of knowledge to even be able to apply it at all. And there is a big difference between having speed, and being fast; and the the speed hitting crap that LaTourrette is selling.
      #1007
  8. botunga is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 11:05am


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Laughingmonkey, I couldn't agree with you more than it is a bit redundant, however, many others have posted here with various opinions. They have a right to be heard, as do you. However, as for feeling "sympathy" for LaTourrette, I think you're nuts, or you're pulling our chain? I don't have any vehemenence toward him, but on the other hand, people should not be deceived into buying his crap so he can enrich himself at other's expense. I just can't agree with that thinking. So what about those he has decieve....what about sympathy for them?

    As far as John M. LaTourrette being a drug user as you suggest...well, anything is possible, but I honestly had never thought of that. So what I'm hearing in your opinion of him is actually quite a bit worse than mine. I do agree with you he is not the worst person in the world, but that has never been said about him on here. He is certainly not a good person either.

    So, redundant or not, the thread is what it is. I think it repeats somewhat, but the underlying issue is that people are being victimized and mislead. Thats why this is the Martial Arts BS forum. So if John M. LaTourrette doesn't want to be mentioned here, then he can show up and present proof of his claims. Or, he can stop doing the lying, and stop selling crap.
      #1008
  9. Knave is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 5:41pm


     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Greetings.

    Your absolutely right. Unfortunately that is the problem with 90% of all martial arts techniques. Either they can't be performed in practice at full force against a resisting opponent because they're too dangerous or they can't work in real situations because it appears effective in practice.
    A prime example is an eye strike. You can't practice that against an opponent in a gym. We know it works since a simple grain of dust in your eye results in involuntary actions (cupping your eye, blinking, watering eyes, etc.) making you uncapable of fighting effectively (unless you're VanDamn in Bloodsport).
    This is not true. It's a copout used by people who don't train with resisting opponents. I have one word for someone who claims that eye gouges can't be practice in a live setting: GOGGLES.

    However, if a jab can land in the ring against a suspecting opponent with their guard up, an eye strike could do the same with match ending results.
    Nope. Eye strikes are considerably harder to land since the striking surface and the target surface are both a small fraction of the size of a jab's striking surface and target surface. Find a boxer. Have him put on goggles. Dip your thumbs/fingertips in ink. Then spar. See how many ink marks you can even make on the goggles before he knocks you out. And that's even giving you the benefit of the doubt that any ink marks would actually have been forceful enough to do damage.

    There are also examples documented on video of fighters trying to perform eye gouges, sometimes even succeeding, and losing anyway. Probably the most well known would be the 1995 match between Gerard Gordeau, 200something pound savate champion and Yuki Nakai, 150lb shooto fighter.

    Gordeau was so afraid of this smaller man's grappling game that he actually used illegal eye gouges, permanently blinding Yuki Nakai in one eye. Gordeau lost via heel hook.
      #1009
  10. laughingmonkey is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 9:43pm


     Style: running

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Howdy botunga,

    The thing is I don't see any "victims." Anyone who has bought his stuff and posted here have said yeah, it's a bit crap. What's the real damage? You spend some bucks and learn a lesson. This is where you've done maybe younger people a good thing and provided the lesson for free. As I said, you "should" be able to see this guy coming from a mile away. And if your into hitting people really fast why not have a look at his stuff?

    Look, you and I know he's a bit full of it and yeah, we have a low opinion of him but you trying to gain the moral high ground is a bit much considering the amount of insults you've leveled at the guy without even trying to understand him. Being addicted to drugs is a terrible thing for anyone. I do not look down apon drug addicts.

    So your not aware that some martial artists(world champions even) use drugs. This is not my opinion. For some of us this is a known fact. For a large minority of people from a variety of sporting codes amphetamines and coke rule their world. Just look at the well documented drug usage by football players from all codes. It's generally a well kept secret but if you know the right people it's common knowledge. I hate to burst anyones bubble.

    I'm no saint for sure but I'm trying to understand the guy rather than just call him names.

    Anyhow, I really think you do have a certain amount of vehemence towards him and in my experience hatred loses fights. I know you won't like that but it's what I believe.

    Yes, I feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for anyone having difficulties. It's just my nature. No chain yanking I promise. Nuts? I prefer philosophical.

    bye for now.

    LM
    Last edited by laughingmonkey; 9/04/2007 9:53pm at .
      #1010

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