Keichu Do - Part Two: Questions for Marx or KD Students

**FreeSpeech** · Posted On: 2/25/2007 9:17pm

If the title of Soke is offensive to any or all of you, it has been noted by Mr. Marx. Rest assured that he is not all that fond (I spelled that wrong I think) of the title. His use of it came from it being given to him by an outside organization that said that it is what his rank and title indicated. I may have mixed words around a little there but am confident that it properly represents what I am trying to get at. If you do not wish to make reference to him and use that particular title, then do not.

Mr. Samurai Steve, and Mr. Judah Maccabee,
Might I suggest that with your particular interests in Mr. Marx's education and published history that you might be better served by contacting him. If you would like, a post on the forum in response say that you would/ or would not like it will be enough, I will PM you my e-mail address and put you in direct contact with Mr. Marx. After all asking on a forum why some chose not to use well standing referance material is not going to be all that productive. Though it may have been a case that he was not aware of the material at the time. I do not intend this as an answer for that particular question just something that should be taken into consideration. I could be a relay man for you and him, but if you do not trust me that would be highly unproductive for all of us.

I will tell you this though. Mr. Marx has, though events from another web site, began to look into his own documentation. I am beyond confident that if he finds that they have been given to him from diploma mills, or similar institutions that he will drop the titles and seek to rectify the situation. I will say that this will be his course of action, because I do not dictate to him what he should do. Though I do know him well enough to say that this will be more than likely his course of action.

I will also tell you that if it is found that his diploma's are false then it will have been because he, Mr. Marx was decieved/ or some other event (accredation was pulled, if that is possible to affect past awarded diplomas) occured. He did not knowingly and/ or willingly seek to attain any (fraudulent) documentation that would allow him to make fraudulent statements.

Thank you Fran P. for your support, and for being able to provide acceptable answers (where they were accepted)!

As to the not new but original. This is a very valid statement and is used nearly universally. For example flower arrangeing has been around for how many years? Anyone want to take a guess. So a new flower arrangement is not possible but an original method or an unique method of arrange flowers may be created. The shoe is not a new concept, but how many unique and original variations of shoes get put out every day? How about the automobile? Here is one, what about music? We keep singing about the same subjects time and agian but yet we are still finding original and unique ways of expressing those concepts. The same holds true for movies... Wait I forgot movies are not an acceptable answer on this forum.... This answer has been posted by several different people in several different manners. There is only so many ways that you can throw a punch, but the method of dilivary can be varied.

Keichu-Do has always been and always be, atleast those supported by Keichu's Soke/ Head Founder/ Master (substitute what ever title you are more comfortable with) <Mr. Marx>, a school of self-defense. Keichu does encourage participation in tournaments. I know that when I studied under Dai Soke Victor Marx he was not a fan of tournaments, that is the impression that I got, but he allowed us to participate in them and helped us train for them. To the best of my knowledge Keichu schools do not encourage participation in events like UFC, and the like. I am not saying that there are not schools that do train for these events. In fact we there was a female student of ours that won a Maui Tai Kickboxing event in Tailand (I believe) not to long ago.

Keichu uses variations of techniques from certain styles. And as set in past presidence these variations alter the style and the name. This is not a new concept either. There is not much to day that one can do that is so cutting edge that it will actually lend you something completely new. 'New' is a term of relavence. And is subjective. There are elements of Keichu technique that you will not in other styles. The same could be said that elements of another style's technique that you will not find in Keichu. Yet that expression does not rattle anyones cage....

As for the honor in Martial Arts. There is, and every participant should be encouraged to improve themselves physically, mentally, and spiritually. Now if improveing yourself through religion is not your cup of tea, then look at it as improveing yourself as a person. Morals, ethics, codes of conduct are not new to Martial Arts. They are not new to human culture for that matter. Now organizations such as NAPMA, EFC and other such business' seem to be more in line with this sites definition of McDojo and other such terms. I worked for a school that taught Shotokan, I was a junior instructor, working towards an instructors liscence, and a program manager. These two organisations are truely matial arts "fast food" institutions. Neither one of them have in anyway provided anything new to the concept of Martial Arts, and just so that you know it the school I taught in was not a EFC school but the owner paid them several thousand dollars regularly for their insight and input as to how to run a financially successful school, in the terms of honor or codes of conduct. They have however streamlined Martial Arts Instructing and turned it into a money makeing gimick. If you do not work on improveing yourself mentally or as a person then you are not participateing in a Martial Art. Rather it would seem that you are enrolled in a Martial System.

It is like the Geniva Convention to which all Allied troops must adhere. It is something that is supposed to help a Martial Artist develope themselves to a higher level. If you are not going to adhere to it then in the end you are no better than the rest who do not. You may be in better shape, and you may be a more refined fighter, the point though is to not just be better in that respect but to be a better person. What most schools teach can and will harm an individual that it is exeuted on without restraint. This is not a burden that someone who does not have above the norm control and restraint should bear(?). I know how you feel about movies but to help me find the words I am going to quote the Spiderman movie "With increased power comes increased responsibility."

I am not bring this up to rehash it. It has I felt been well explained and dealt with. The Gator Roll is not a carriculum requirement. So there is no longer any sense in attempting to use it as a weapon agianst Keichu-Do. But case in point.

The individuals who reported haveing used it. Did not use it. They used or attempted on their own to use something similar to the Gator Roll and failed in this attempt. The Gator Roll is a technique that is found within the Keichu-Do school. The individuals in question were not Keichu students, they were not attempting the technique at a seminar where an approved (liscensed is a sense, every keichu instructor has to be approved of by a board of examiners, and of course (Soke) Mr. Marx. Of course so does every black belt.) Keichu instructor was demonstrateing this technique. While it may be possible for an individual to, completely on their own, immitate or 'recreate' a technique I will at this point in time stay firm in my statement that these individuals were not successful in recreateing the technique. Haveing practiced it under an approved instructor and having found it effective and competant I am a better judge of it's effectiveness than the individuals that have spoken agianst it. I am going to point out agian that the Gator Roll is NOT a carriculum required technique. Speaking solely for myself, without practicing it extensively I am not sure that I would use it in a self defense situations. There are other ways to resolve just about any given situation than this move. The same could be said if I tried to perform a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu techniqque and failed to recreate it, or tried a move and later found out that it was a staple technique of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Would I be valid in comeing onto a website and saying that the move was useless because I had been practicing in another form of Ju-Jutsu and attempted that move and it did not work for me. (I have had instruction in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu on several different occasions) For the sake of this point lets say that I have not had any training under a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu instructor, and after makeing a post about how ineffective that technique was a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu student or instructor came on and said that move does work. "I have been taught it, I have taught it, I have trained it and had it trained on me." Personally I would bow out on this matter and ask for instruction and try it under a certified instructor, or heck maybe even the person that thought it up. I would not however stand there and shake my head and close mindedly continue to denounce it. But then agian that is me.

Back Fist Monkey it usually helps to keep people from becomeing confused on ones motivation and intent if you let them know that you have been chosen as a represenative of a group, or are takeing it apon yourself to represent a group that has chosen to remain silent on a matter to help out 'said' individual. When you express a statement without doing so you make it appear as if that is your sentament. I am not a mind reader and I do not know to many people that are. So trying to interpret intent from a message board goes beyond the realms of possiblility or plausibility (pretty much).
You should also know that when you try to clarify that your original statement was not a manifestation of your abilities or inabilites that you are representing a group of people. You should also state that while you are representing them their sentiments are not yours. Otherwise you have just adopted their sentiments.
So, why waste your time expressing something that you do not agree with?

I am a represenative of Mr. Marx. I am not with this statement, any past or present statement, expressing anything anyhow for Mr. Marx. In other words I am not here to put words in his mouth. If I deliver a statement directly from him I will and have made it clear that it has come from him.

Your pursuit into his views of 'laying of hands' and other such events that have been quoted from his books, to me seem to stem more from ideological differences rather than any case in point where such events have been prooved beyond a doubt to be false.

If you wish me to put you in contact with Mr. (Soke) Marx let me know. As I said I will PM you my email address. After that email me and I will put you into contact with him. Outside of this it is going to take extreme sicerety or some earth shattering "thing" (determined by myself) for me to continue to be active on this thread.

I wish you all the best. Have great and happy lives, I hope you achieve all that you set out for. God Bless!

**Judah Maccabee** · Posted On: 2/25/2007 9:25pm

I see photos of things at the Louisiana State Archives. I have never denied that Keichu-Do has an exhibit in the archives. In fact, here is exactly what is in that archive:

1. Issues of "Kung Fu" Magazine
2. Issues of "Warriors" Magazine
3. Issues of "Black Belt" magazine from 1975-1986
4. Issues of "Black Belt" magazine from 1963-1974.
5. ... of "Inside Karate"
6. ... of "Kick Illustrated"
7. ... of "Tae Kwon Do Times"
8. ... of "Traditional Tae Kwon Do" Magazine
9. Certificates, handouts, correspondence (1964-1989), instruction books and Black Belt Credos written by Karl Marx's pupils.
10. Issues of "Karate Illustrated"
11. ... of "Fighting Stars"
12. ... of "Action Black Belt.
13. ... of "American Karate."
14. ... of "Official Karate" magazine
15. 2 photo items of patches, photographs and articles, 1 karate video tape Fort Polk karate roll book and "several karate magazines."
16. By-laws of World Kyung-Chung-Do self defense federation, Sept 1979; 2 bound publications written in French. One appears to be an instruction manual and the other a corporation charter; newspaper clippings; a class record from Northwestern State U. in Natchitoches, and one folder of correspondence, 1980-1981 written in French

I still have yet to see proof of a "Keichu Day" beyond Action Martial Arts Magazine or that Keichu-Do is the "official martial arts of Louisiana" as noted at the Five Cities Keichu-Do website.

===

Regarding Marx and his apparently now-defunct Ph.D:

http://www.amazon.com/Martial-Arts-T...e=UTF8&s=books

Martial Arts Therapy by Karl W., Ph.D. Marx (Paperback - Dec 30, 2005)

Along with all other references to his having a Ph.D

Really big problem. And without lengthy investigation by many at Bullshido and myself, this would not have ever come to light.

**Judah Maccabee** · Posted On: 2/25/2007 9:29pm

FreeSpeech, you must have missed the part where I wrote to Marx-sensei and received a reply from his son. He was very gracious, direct, and open about many matters, but not all, and I have expressed my appreciation to him in direct reply and here.

I don't need you to be an intermediary, but I appreciate the effort.

I am a better judge of it's effectiveness than the individuals that have spoken agianst it.

No offense, but I hold LORD ASIA and Omega's views on the martial arts in higher esteem than yours', and adhere to their interpretation and judgment of the gator roll.

That being said, I still await further substantiation of the aforementioned claims.

**Sam Browning** · Posted On: 2/25/2007 9:30pm

Free Speech, the Geneva convention is a treaty signed between nations. Martial arts honor means something different to each person who hears this term.

**weechey** · Posted On: 2/25/2007 9:38pm

I just posted a message on Amazon.com referring them to this thread. He got one person to favorably review his book there...hmmm...wonder who that person might be?

**FreeSpeech** · Posted On: 2/25/2007 9:44pm

Originally Posted by BSDaemon

Recieved January 19th from Karl Marx

I just wanted to thank you. You posted while I was in the middle of that last post. It is nice that verification of what I have been saying comes from someone other than myself.

Agian thank you very much!

**FreeSpeech** · Posted On: 2/25/2007 9:48pm

Originally Posted by weechey

I just posted a message on Amazon.com referring them to this thread. He got one person to favorably review his book there...hmmm...wonder who that person might be?

Actually that individual has not participated on this forum. Yet at least. So if you are going to speculate please keep it to yourself there may be a gullible individual out there who might not realize it and think that, that is a fact spoken by an expert or someone credible. Of course I do not want you to take away from this a feeling that I am questioning your credibility. I do not know and have not looked into it so, no in fact I am not.

I am however expressing the fact that all speculations should be cut out or properly labled.

**FreeSpeech** · Posted On: 2/25/2007 9:54pm

Originally Posted by Samuel Browning

Free Speech, the Geneva convention is a treaty signed between nations. Martial arts honor means something different to each person who hears this term.

Mr. Browning,
I know for a fact, due to past conversations, that you are not that dumb (please excuse my lack of creativity in chooseing such a blasea and under descriptive term). So what is the purpose of this response? And thanks for correcting my misspelling (sincerely). The term, in this case I chose to use the Geneva Convention, more directly honor is without a doubt subjectional and based on the understanding of the individual. This really goes into what is majorities rule, what are morals/ ethics/ and so on. However it's function of a code of honor or conduct is still the same. To say that it is a gimick set in place by NAPMA or EFC is in point wrong.

We have nit picked at one another and disagreed over points in the past but this is not one I am going take any further it is pretty much, without going into philisophicals, cut and dry.

**FreeSpeech** · Posted On: 2/25/2007 9:55pm

Originally Posted by Judah Maccabee

FreeSpeech, you must have missed the part where I wrote to Marx-sensei and received a reply from his son. He was very gracious, direct, and open about many matters, but not all, and I have expressed my appreciation to him in direct reply and here.

I don't need you to be an intermediary, but I appreciate the effort.

No offense, but I hold LORD ASIA and Omega's views on the martial arts in higher esteem than yours', and adhere to their interpretation and judgment of the gator roll.

That being said, I still await further substantiation of the aforementioned claims.

No I saw that and I thought that you were referencing his son. I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

**Sam Browning** · Posted On: 2/25/2007 10:43pm

Stop playing games and provide the name of your state archive source who told you that there had been an official Karl Marx Day in Louisiana.

You deliberately fail to grasp the distinction between a treaty which is ratified by nations after negotiations and commited to paper, and a term like honor in the martial arts of which there is no agreed upon definition.

Now as to the issue of honor in the martial arts I'd like to refer you to an article by Rob Redmond who writes some of the best articles on Shotokan karate I've ever seen.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/20.../the-dojo-con/

"Karate instructors rarely have the bully pulpit. I find that most people seem to agree that Karate instructors are not exactly shining examples of moral and ethical behavior. If there is to be a 2nd coming, it will not be a Karate instructor. The personality which combines leadership ability, desire to be in power and in charge of others, and a desire to know how to harm others physically is not a personality style that generally serves as a shining example of upstanding behavior. Misbehavior among Karate instructors runs rampant as it does through politicians. Divorcing their wives to shack up with a student, throwing people out for disloyalty, and sharking the waters of political intrigue in Karate organizations… these people often don’t have the credibility to present a moral code and stand up to scrutiny."

Would you like names? How about James Mitose, the founder of Kempo who died in prison for arranging the murder of someone that he had been extorting money from.

How about Count Dante who got one of his students stabbed to death while raiding another Martial Arts School in the early 1970s.

How about Frank Dux? See M.C. Busman's articles on Mr. Dux at Bullshido.com

If the community itself cannot even behave honorably, how can you legitimately claim that there is a common code of honor. There isn't such a creature out there.