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  1. Judah Maccabee is offline
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    Bullshido Wikipedia Delegate

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 8:23pm

    supporting memberhall of fameBullshido Newbie
     Style: Krav / (Kick)Boxing / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What made you take up investigating Keichu Do, or any other martial art?
    The response to this is very simple, and is mentioned in my investigation:

    I am a psychological researcher, and one of the topics I've researched is the role of martial arts in helping to treat various psychological issues or disorders, such as depression, antisocial behavior, etc. Marx-sensei happened to have a book on the market called "Martial Arts Therapy," which purported to have this topic as a focus.

    I bought the book, and discovered that the book was a copy of Marx's reported doctoral thesis from the 1970's. I also discovered that the book had significant numbers of errors in grammar, punctuation, and research quality. There were 3 studies available at the time of writing that were the landmark studies concerning the psychosocial effects of martial arts. Based on these and other factors, I had a very hard time believing that this book was a thesis of doctoral quality, and the investigation began there.

    It had nothing to do with Keichu-Do, Christian martial arts, or Karl Marx's background as a martial artist, pimp, preacher, or anything else. It had to do with the poor quality of his academic writing, and snowballed from there.

    You might not like his style of martial arts. But it is still an effective system of self-defense.
    He might not be the most glib man with American English that I have ever met, but he is a man whose martial accomplishments are worthy of respect.
    I'm not exactly sure what meritorious martial accomplishments he has done with a substantiated record. The most cited accomplishment of his is never having lost a fistfight except to Earl Adair during his time in the Navy.

    He is a man who has directly stated that most mental disorders are psychosomatic in origin, and are due to displacements in magnetic energy and/or ki. He also says that ki is divine energy from G-d.

    He very well may have an effective method of self-defense, as testified to by his nephew, the MMA fighter Micah Lopez (though Lopez has acknowledged he's expanded his training beyond Keichu-Do for competitive purposes), but there are extremely significant issues in his academic background, his historical record, and other areas that consumers and others deserve to know.
  2. franp is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 9:07pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: tae kwon do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JM,
    Thanks for the background info. You have valid questions. I haven't read any of Karl Marx's treatises on psychosomatic illnesses, so I cannot speak to those issues. But I can speak to the effectiveness of his martial art.

    I taught Keichu for several years in the city where I live. We were a very inner-city school. (I have retired from teaching due to my ministry). Several of my students were forced to defend themselves over the years. The only fight training they had was Keichu Do. They were able to defend themselves very handily. This street-application of Keichu Do was a real-life lab where it proved to be effective.

    The martial arts accomplishments I was speaking of was his codification of Keichu Do. Is it something entirely new? No. But it is original. Like most martial arts, if the techniques are based upon how to affect the anatomy & physiology of the human body, they will be effective. I am not ruling out the psychology of the combatants. I am speaking only to the physics of the techniques.

    Jiu-jutsu is jiu-jutsu, wherever it comes from. The principles of circularity & leverage are based on physics. Whoever "creates" a technique, if it is in accordance with the laws of physics, has created a technique that can be effective.

    Karl Marx has surely put together a martial system that is unique in some ways, but, like all other martial systems, it does contain techniques that are similar to/the same as those found in other systems.
    -----------------------------

    BackFistMonkey, your use of juvenile language ("douche bag") makes it clear that it would be a great waste of time to correspond with you. We have nothing to prove to you.
    Franp
  3. Don Gwinn is online now
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    BJJ wins again!

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 9:46pm

    supporting member
     Style: Guns

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In other words, "No, I will not post those pictures because you're a meanie who uses inappropriate language."

    You don't by any chance know a guy named Mantis, do you, Mr. Pultro? You'd get along well.

    Is it something entirely new? No. But it is original.
    How does that work, exactly? He created something original, but not new?
    *********************************************
  4. franp is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 10:01pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: tae kwon do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don,
    I don't know what you are reading, but I never said I wouldn't post the photos I have once I locate them. Your baiting is just as juvenile as BackFistMonkey's juvenile language.

    Somewhere in these posts (recently; the past 24 hours?) someone else had some photos they were going to post also. Keep your eyes open.

    Poor Mantis, whoever he/she is, has likely read your juvenile writings too. I guess all 2 of you (you & BackFistMonkey) are the overseers of the martial arts world. Please forgive me, oh high & mighty one! Are there any people who take you seriously? Have you ever stepped on the mat? Are you older than your language suggests?

    Grow up. We in the martial arts world have nothing to prove to anonymous people who don't know the meaning of even the language that is allegedly their native tongue.

    Webster's 9th Collegiate Dictionary
    "original" 3a "a person of fresh initiative or inventive capacity"

    Learn the language, kid.
  5. Don Gwinn is online now
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    BJJ wins again!

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 10:17pm

    supporting member
     Style: Guns

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You said you had photos that would contradict the people in charge of the Louisiana State Archives. You were asked to produce them. You gave a couple of excuses, then clammed up. The next time you posted, you made a point of telling a poster there was no point in corresponding etc. etc. etc.
    We've been around long enough to know what that usually means. Feel free to prove me wrong by posting the photos you took that day.

    Are there any people who take you seriously?
    Probably not; I teach 6th-graders for a living.

    Have you ever stepped on the mat?
    Yes. But if you're wondering if you should be impressed, you should probably wait until you ask how good I am. I am what the kids these days refer to as a "crappler."


    Not to be the grammar Nazi, but since the grammar fascism has begun, your use of an adjectival definition that only applies to people is deceptive. You weren't describing a person, but a thing--a system of martial arts. In that context, your definition doesn't make sense. Even if it did, it would still preclude anything that wasn't unique or new--notice the words "fresh" and "inventive?"

    adjective
    1. belonging or pertaining to the origin or beginning of something, or to a thing at its beginning: The book still has its original binding.
    2. new; fresh; inventive; novel: an original way of advertising.
    3. arising or proceeding independently of anything else: an original view of history.
    4. capable of or given to thinking or acting in an independent, creative, or individual manner: an original thinker.
    5. created, undertaken, or presented for the first time: to give the original performance of a string quartet.
    6. being something from which a copy, a translation, or the like is made: The original document is in Washington.
    There's nothing there that applies to something that isn't new.

    Now I'll stop derailing Steve's thread.
    *********************************************
  6. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 10:52pm

    supporting member
     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by franp
    BackFistMonkey, your use of juvenile language ("douche bag") makes it clear that it would be a great waste of time to correspond with you. We have nothing to prove to you.
    Franp

    My juvenile language was a carefully worded post to show you exactly how it appears to the hundreds of thousands of Martial Artists who read this forum and will stumble across this thread in the future . I was and still am attempting to HELP your case by showing a view point you may not have considered from your lofty position .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    “I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  7. Judah Maccabee is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 11:05pm

    supporting memberhall of fameBullshido Newbie
     Style: Krav / (Kick)Boxing / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The martial arts accomplishments I was speaking of was his codification of Keichu Do. Is it something entirely new? No. But it is original.
    One of the "unique techniques" presented to this forum by Keichu advocates was the "gator roll," which was declared by many on this forum to be an armbar with a gimmicky move that diminished the effectiveness of the original technique. There was also a consensus that the takedowns considered unique to Keichu-do were less-effective modifications of tried-and-true methods from already established arts.

    Marx's autobiography discusses how he kept pepper in his pockets to throw in the eyes of enemies. He also refers frequently to judo techniques he used against opponents, rather than anything uniquely Keichu-do.

    I don't think most people here would begrudge Marx's invented blend of martial arts if it were not rife with outrageous claims by Marx himself and adherents. Pat Miletich, Fred Degerberg, and several others have all established their own fighting methods at their schools - Miletich Fighting Systems and the Degerberg Blend, respectively. Neither of these fighters/systems include claims such as "The First American Martial Art" or have their founders claim they are the "Fathers of American Karate." Nor do they say they have made an American art at the same time that said art is essentially culled from Asian martial arts with no notable additions.

    Nor do Miletich or Degerberg hold claim to academic & martial titles that cannot be easily checked or verified. Over one hundred posts in another thread dealt with Marx's doctoral degrees, and my personal conclusion from the evidence is that Marx's doctoral degrees were from diploma mills and/or unaccredited institutions.


    My investigation of Marx dealt more with his writings than the martial efficacy of his created art, as my skills and expertise deal more with the former than the latter. However, given that this forum places a primary emphasis on the demonstrated efficacy of a martial art, I left it to experts in that area to make their determinations on Keichu-Do, and have reported them as such accordingly.
  8. franp is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 11:09pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: tae kwon do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don,

    My remark about the usage of "original" still stands. I too was a school teacher, elementary, middle, high school & university. Social Studies, not English. Not trying to be a grammar-Nazi. Just explaining my usage.

    I don't particulary care how good a martial artist you or the others might be/not be. The attitudes that come through in the postings suggest little or no honor. That suggests to me that those who are so adamant in their attempts to deconstuct K. Marx and/or Keichu have not been training in/training for long in systems that teach humility & honor, or they are simply very young & have a lot of growing up to do. At least you are honest enough to call yourself a crappler.

    As to the photos I took. If I can find them I'll post them. Period. I didn't "clam up." I live in the real world with a real job & deal with real people with serious issues. Looking for those photos is not tops on my priority list. But I will look for them in my spare time.

    But I wonder why you are so interested? Do you & some of the other posters here have a grudge against K. Marx or Keichu? My statement still stands. We who have been practicing the arts for a long time don't have anything to prove. Not to you or anyone else.

    If you guys want to fight & waste your time over endless genealogies & such, I am saddened for you.
  9. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 11:40pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "The attitudes that come through in the postings suggest little or no honor. That suggests to me that those who are so adamant in their attempts to deconstuct K. Marx and/or Keichu have not been training in/training for long in systems that teach humility & honor".

    So now you want to argue about honor instead of the facts that Steve has brought out in his research. That would indicate you are having trouble refuting them. Don't you have a picture of Marx receiving his "official State Art" certificate? With that picture we might be able to quickly identify the state official who allegedly bestowed this honor upon him.

    In our experience at Bullshido, there is no uniform code of honor within the martial arts. The whole humility and honor approach is however very useful for martial arts teachers who wish to better control their students. The NAPMA even has a whole "Black Belt" script designed to sell multi-year contracts using such a pitch.

    If I want to learn honor, my source will be my parents, family, and church. I do not expect to do so through my martial arts hobby or any athletic activity.
  10. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 11:46pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maybe this fine school could teach me about honor.

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=32017
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