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  1. HANKtheTANK is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/31/2006 8:20pm


     Style: Systema & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    well yeah, thats what i like to see....fighters with all round skills to set up their take downs
    genki sudo, in a vid clip i found, where he goes against about 7 guys in one day, and he's pulling off flying triangles and ****....beautiful!

    if ur only a wrestler and depend on the take down only....its not fun to watch. IE. Rashad Evans, Mark Coleman.....etc. I hate seeing them doing the same thing over and over. getting guys backs, and NOT knowing a lick about how to choke or secure the position with hooks..etc....its frustrating to see great wrestlers unable to finish or expand their game, period

    the new generation guys like st.pierre, denis kang, and many others that arent poppin into my head now, they're the exciting ones, that set u up for the take down, they can do it all, and obviously with more options in your arsenal, the harder it is for the opponent to predict what u'll do. So when you DO shoot for the take down, it'll be that much more effecient...and 'pretty'...

    counter fighters, with anti grappling is obviously worth noting as well, like Chuck, crocop....to some extent fedor. It ain't easy. I know ppl who take it for granted how easy they think it is to sprawl. Pete Sell couldn't do **** effectively against Lutter, and Lutter's take downs arent even 1st class. It takes 100% commitment to fight this way. No half ass sprawls. which is why, BJ penn vs st.pierre comes to mind (hell, BJ versus hughes....or...ANYONE) Bj's so damn skilled and flexible, he's almost impossible to take down. and even if he does go down.....you're still in friggin danger! haha
  2. Andrew L. is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2006 9:14pm


     Style: Still searching...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HANKtheTANK
    well yeah, thats what i like to see....fighters with all round skills to set up their take downs
    genki sudo, in a vid clip i found, where he goes against about 7 guys in one day, and he's pulling off flying triangles and ****....beautiful!

    if ur only a wrestler and depend on the take down only....its not fun to watch. IE. Rashad Evans, Mark Coleman.....etc. I hate seeing them doing the same thing over and over. getting guys backs, and NOT knowing a lick about how to choke or secure the position with hooks..etc....its frustrating to see great wrestlers unable to finish or expand their game, period

    the new generation guys like st.pierre, denis kang, and many others that arent poppin into my head now, they're the exciting ones, that set u up for the take down, they can do it all, and obviously with more options in your arsenal, the harder it is for the opponent to predict what u'll do. So when you DO shoot for the take down, it'll be that much more effecient...and 'pretty'...

    counter fighters, with anti grappling is obviously worth noting as well, like Chuck, crocop....to some extent fedor. It ain't easy. I know ppl who take it for granted how easy they think it is to sprawl. Pete Sell couldn't do **** effectively against Lutter, and Lutter's take downs arent even 1st class. It takes 100% commitment to fight this way. No half ass sprawls. which is why, BJ penn vs st.pierre comes to mind (hell, BJ versus hughes....or...ANYONE) Bj's so damn skilled and flexible, he's almost impossible to take down. and even if he does go down.....you're still in friggin danger! haha
    I know you were only using it for reference ,but i hate the term anti-grappling. Anti-grappling is part of grappling, fighting with your opponent without striking them. The sprawl is a technique that is part of grappling.

    I can understand Coleman not knowing how to attack from the back, but when i saw him cross his feet... Isnt putting your hooks in to take the back part of wrestling? I thought i heard someone on this board say that.

    Even though i doubt Coleman has tried to become more well rounded. How well rounded can we expect one dimensional fighters from the first generation to become? For example it takes years to become "proficient" at jiu-jitsu for most people. Can we expect 35+ year old fighters to become as good at their weaknesses as they are at theyre fundemental skills in the last years of the their careers?
  3. MacWombat is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2006 9:22pm


     Style: Relson GJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is my understanding that Coleman is not only doing this for himself but all of Hammer House. I don't think Randleman is too old to learn submissions. I agree if you are at a certain age and want to win in pro MMA, you might as well just work ridiculously hard on your strengths and hope your weaknesses don't come into play. However, no matter what age you should also want to be the best fighter/MAist you can, so I don't see why he shouldn't look to submissions at all. Also, it would give him something to do after he is retired. I imagine it's hard to train in wrestling/MMA the older you get.
  4. HANKtheTANK is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/31/2006 10:22pm


     Style: Systema & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    randy couture has adapted well

    Lindland is on a tear lately. (his fight with Rampage was a beautiful take down clinic, by both of them)

    about wrestling, and its wide range of techniques based on MMA
    hooks - yes, wrestling does apply hooks, but not in the same sense as sub wrestling.
    as i remember, i used to sink the hooks into a guy during comp, only to get him to roll ONTO his back, for the 2 points. So i can agree that most moves are already inherent in wrestling, but its not in the same context

    the anti grappling, very true, its only a part of grappling for sure. But as a reference - no one on here will mis-understand what it means, and its easier to reference it that way

    and with regards to expanding their knowledge...hammer house
    uh, jackass phil baroni......finished off nishijima with a bread and butter submission for many fighters, and he had no idea what it was called....thats an embarrassment man! he's been doing MMA for how long? and the bulk of his time was spent with hammer house. Even still, does he not WATCH other people fight and get a grasp of the names of submissions after all these years? what a tool

    anyone can expand their game, its not hard to learn something so simple as a kimura. drill it a few times, and its easy to spot the opening as a wrestler - side control.

    all the moves i've ever seen coleman do in their viignettes before his fights is of him weight training, grunting a lot, running....and when it comes to grappling, i see the can opener, and the neck crank from the scarf hold position! thats ALL i ever see!

    not to wanna pick on Coleman. I know, it sux since he has done a lot for the sport, but there are many others following in his footsteps
  5. HANKtheTANK is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/31/2006 10:28pm


     Style: Systema & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    with regards to superior wrestlers taking guys back....
    just quickly remembering....
    rashad evans
    melvin guillard
    matt hamil

    of recent UFCs....all had chances to take the backs of their opponents, but had no idea what they were doing...letting the guy roll out or turn back into them

    I'm biased i guess, i used to wrestle, and obviously now, i work a lot on my submissions, so i can see where wrestling is limited as a sport when it comes to finishing

    josh koscheck....i hated his attitude before, but he's impressing me with his willingness to learn and expand his game. He openly said, he thinks he's a great wrestler, its more than second nature for him, so why bother training in what he's naturally gifted at. He spends 90% of his time working on stand up and subwrestling.....and i can respect that...and start to like watching him get better. (he said this after his last fight, being interviewed i think)
  6. HANKtheTANK is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/31/2006 10:34pm


     Style: Systema & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    oh, and have ya ever heard the hammer house corner shout advice for their guy when they're in trouble (getting mounted, or whatever else, which happens a lot)?

    its pathetic

    ignorance is unacceptable at the elite level of this sport
  7. Andrew L. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/01/2006 12:31am


     Style: Still searching...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HANKtheTANK
    randy couture has adapted well

    Lindland is on a tear lately. (his fight with Rampage was a beautiful take down clinic, by both of them)

    about wrestling, and its wide range of techniques based on MMA
    hooks - yes, wrestling does apply hooks, but not in the same sense as sub wrestling.
    as i remember, i used to sink the hooks into a guy during comp, only to get him to roll ONTO his back, for the 2 points. So i can agree that most moves are already inherent in wrestling, but its not in the same context

    the anti grappling, very true, its only a part of grappling for sure. But as a reference - no one on here will mis-understand what it means, and its easier to reference it that way

    and with regards to expanding their knowledge...hammer house
    uh, jackass phil baroni......finished off nishijima with a bread and butter submission for many fighters, and he had no idea what it was called....thats an embarrassment man! he's been doing MMA for how long? and the bulk of his time was spent with hammer house. Even still, does he not WATCH other people fight and get a grasp of the names of submissions after all these years? what a tool

    anyone can expand their game, its not hard to learn something so simple as a kimura. drill it a few times, and its easy to spot the opening as a wrestler - side control.

    all the moves i've ever seen coleman do in their viignettes before his fights is of him weight training, grunting a lot, running....and when it comes to grappling, i see the can opener, and the neck crank from the scarf hold position! thats ALL i ever see!

    not to wanna pick on Coleman. I know, it sux since he has done a lot for the sport, but there are many others following in his footsteps
    Yah i was completely shocked when I saw Baroni actually submit someone, I almost crapped myself. Baroni's definitely an idiot I hope Frank shows him what a real kimura is.

    I also agree that although Coleman has some degree of excuse for not being well rounded, Randleman does not. Randleman should be all over the sub wrestling game right now; it also wouldnt hurt if he learned to kick.

    As for hammer house i think their mentality is: "Were wrestlers/GNPer's and were proud of it. Thats all we wanna do, screw sub wrestling" , which is why they refuse to adapt. Not because they dont think submissions are useful ,but because they want to be true to their past.
    Last edited by Andrew L.; 11/01/2006 12:37am at .
  8. wakarukaya is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/01/2006 1:03am


     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A little off topic... but I was really shocked that Baroni pulled that off.

    On this issue of adaptability, I'd like to bring up the case of Nishijima. My question is how long should we expect it to take for someone with no familiarity with ground game to be able to put up a good fight? They put him in with Yoshida in his 2nd fight... I can't imagine what kind of training you could go through to be ready for that in 3-4 months.
  9. HANKtheTANK is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/01/2006 1:33am


     Style: Systema & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wakarukaya
    A little off topic... but I was really shocked that Baroni pulled that off.

    On this issue of adaptability, I'd like to bring up the case of Nishijima. My question is how long should we expect it to take for someone with no familiarity with ground game to be able to put up a good fight? They put him in with Yoshida in his 2nd fight... I can't imagine what kind of training you could go through to be ready for that in 3-4 months.
    IMO, its all individual....some put their heart and soul into their training and are open minded enough to truly learn

    and its true that some fighters have their habits really hardwired into their bodies (wrestlers)...like tito. I KNOW he knows a plenty of submissions (having dean lister training with him..u know) yet he always sticks to his reliable GnP with elbows....and i guess this is the time to throw in the "its not broken, why fix it"

    Rulon Gardner did a good job with his debut fight with yoshida. He'd learn fast if he would have pursued MMA more

    Crocop is learning how to defend the ground game really well now....with top notch grappler, werdum. And we all know how dedicated crocop is to his fight career.

    Mark Hunt, seems to have good instincts when it comes to getting out of trouble on the ground. He's just a helter skelter kinda guy (ass drop on wanderlei! hilarious) and he lasted for a good amount of time with yoshida before falling for the armbar

    so results are all individual, as with any martial art

    to me, learning a few subs from common positions that wrestlers always end up in, should not be that hard at all....RNC....various key locks....just the basics is enough. I don't see the argument against it really. It can only benefit your game in the sport of MMA, whether it is used for offense, or simply used to defend the move, however u slice it, its important to 'know' when ur being 'set up' for a kimura, or triangle choke. Afterall its all about winning....

    Coleman, falling pray for the second time to fedors arm bar....i mean really???? does he not study fight footage? If i were caught in any sub that i was clueless about, u can be damn sure, the next day, i'll be drilling it and learning everything there is to know about the move, to use it or defend it, so it won't happen again in the future...

    so again, like i said before, ignorance to this aspect of the game at this elite level of competition is unacceptable IMO
  10. Andrew L. is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/01/2006 2:08am


     Style: Still searching...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HANKtheTANK
    IMO, its all individual....some put their heart and soul into their training and are open minded enough to truly learn

    and its true that some fighters have their habits really hardwired into their bodies (wrestlers)...like tito. I KNOW he knows a plenty of submissions (having dean lister training with him..u know) yet he always sticks to his reliable GnP with elbows....and i guess this is the time to throw in the "its not broken, why fix it"

    Rulon Gardner did a good job with his debut fight with yoshida. He'd learn fast if he would have pursued MMA more

    Crocop is learning how to defend the ground game really well now....with top notch grappler, werdum. And we all know how dedicated crocop is to his fight career.

    Mark Hunt, seems to have good instincts when it comes to getting out of trouble on the ground. He's just a helter skelter kinda guy (ass drop on wanderlei! hilarious) and he lasted for a good amount of time with yoshida before falling for the armbar

    so results are all individual, as with any martial art

    to me, learning a few subs from common positions that wrestlers always end up in, should not be that hard at all....RNC....various key locks....just the basics is enough. I don't see the argument against it really. It can only benefit your game in the sport of MMA, whether it is used for offense, or simply used to defend the move, however u slice it, its important to 'know' when ur being 'set up' for a kimura, or triangle choke. Afterall its all about winning....

    Coleman, falling pray for the second time to fedors arm bar....i mean really???? does he not study fight footage? If i were caught in any sub that i was clueless about, u can be damn sure, the next day, i'll be drilling it and learning everything there is to know about the move, to use it or defend it, so it won't happen again in the future...

    so again, like i said before, ignorance to this aspect of the game at this elite level of competition is unacceptable IMO
    Like I said before in some cases we may be confusing "ignorance" for pride. Hammer house specifically I think refuses to adapt because then they wouldnt be "true wrestlers" even to the point where they wont learn basic submissions or if they know them wont use them to win(to some extent).

    Although as far as people who dont have anything to uphold
    not knowing is simply like you said ignorance.

    We should probably try to get back to takedowns.
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