223626 Bullies, 4233 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 11 to 20 of 41
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12 345 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. roly is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    769

    Posted On:
    10/30/2006 6:10pm


     Style: judo, karate, jap jj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew L.
    What i mean is the time from when the takedown is executed to either succesfully grabbing a limb or finishing the takedown.
    ok, to do a takedown you need to actually control the person
    you cant measure the time between executing a takedown and grabbing a limb, because grabbing a limb is usually the start of the takedown /confused

    also a takdown from the clich is a different beast from a double-leg that starts from range, its hard to compare the speed of them properly


    also consider that there are takedowns that (if done perfectly etc etc) can actually be done very slowly and still be very effective
    consider the firemans carry- you can pick someone up over your shoulders, actually stand up and walk a few meters and then dump someone on thier head from 1.5-2 yards in the air
    is that any less effective than a lightning fast ankle pick that only causes the guy to fall on his ass?
  2. HANKtheTANK is offline
    HANKtheTANK's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,177

    Posted On:
    10/30/2006 7:47pm


     Style: Systema & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    randleman took down shogun pretty damn fast last week...too bad he lacks the ground knowledge to follow up his take downs to finish or defend the jitz....no thanx to the hammer house mentality
  3. Andrew L. is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    83

    Posted On:
    10/30/2006 9:40pm


     Style: Still searching...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by roly
    ok, to do a takedown you need to actually control the person
    you cant measure the time between executing a takedown and grabbing a limb, because grabbing a limb is usually the start of the takedown /confused

    also a takdown from the clich is a different beast from a double-leg that starts from range, its hard to compare the speed of them properly


    also consider that there are takedowns that (if done perfectly etc etc) can actually be done very slowly and still be very effective
    consider the firemans carry- you can pick someone up over your shoulders, actually stand up and walk a few meters and then dump someone on thier head from 1.5-2 yards in the air
    is that any less effective than a lightning fast ankle pick that only causes the guy to fall on his ass?
    Yes i know this, thats why i said i was mostly referring to shots (i.e. single/double). Although takedowns from the clinch arent the same as singles and doubles they still have an element of speed.

    Even for the firemans carry, getting yourself in position to execute it has an element of speed.

    Perhaps compare clinch takedowns and ranged takedowns seperately.

    Also when i said grab a limb i meant having complete control and being in position to offbalance your opponent. I guess i was using grabbing a limb as a measure of speed because its something you can quantify easily, where as actually completing the takedown can happen long after you have control of a leg or two.

    Or perhaps a better question to ask would be "In a purely takedown vs. sprawl game who would be your pick to go against the best mma sprawlers?"
    Last edited by Andrew L.; 10/30/2006 9:44pm at .
  4. Andrew L. is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    83

    Posted On:
    10/30/2006 9:43pm


     Style: Still searching...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HANKtheTANK
    randleman took down shogun pretty damn fast last week...too bad he lacks the ground knowledge to follow up his take downs to finish or defend the jitz....no thanx to the hammer house mentality
    Yah Randlemans insanely talented to bad he wont add some sub wrestling to his game.
  5. HANKtheTANK is offline
    HANKtheTANK's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,177

    Posted On:
    10/30/2006 10:57pm


     Style: Systema & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    and diego sanchez (like him or hate him)....he has a relentless shoot....
    if he can expand his take down skills a bit more...to add variety and keep his opponents guessing, he'll have an easier time with his shoot
    but as it stands, its still a very quick and determined shoot he makes. And he's doing it to opponents that study this and formulate game plans around it....yet he still has good success
  6. roly is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    769

    Posted On:
    10/31/2006 12:56am


     Style: judo, karate, jap jj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew L.
    Or perhaps a better question to ask would be "In a purely takedown vs. sprawl game who would be your pick to go against the best mma sprawlers?"
    best Vs sprawlers = obvioulsy someone who trains against the sprawling opponents (ie a wrestler)
    i'm not up to date with the ufc as australia doesnt get the PPV and i need to wait for it to hit the local video store, i cant provide recent examples

    mark kerr in his prime (drug induced prime anyways) was a monster, also terribly quick for his size
    kevin randleman is also very fast and strong (although his striking and submission game needs work)

    basically anyone who has wrestled at an elite level & is willing to branch out into MMA will fit into your category

    if you have the time to search, check out frank shamrocks debut UFC fight, there is a good example of a fast takedown 4 seconds into the match i believe
  7. El Neko is offline
    El Neko's Avatar

    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Boca Raton
    Posts
    1,194

    Posted On:
    10/31/2006 11:34am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Karo, Sherk, Hughes
  8. Andrew L. is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    83

    Posted On:
    10/31/2006 5:13pm


     Style: Still searching...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by roly
    best Vs sprawlers = obvioulsy someone who trains against the sprawling opponents (ie a wrestler)
    i'm not up to date with the ufc as australia doesnt get the PPV and i need to wait for it to hit the local video store, i cant provide recent examples

    mark kerr in his prime (drug induced prime anyways) was a monster, also terribly quick for his size
    kevin randleman is also very fast and strong (although his striking and submission game needs work)

    basically anyone who has wrestled at an elite level & is willing to branch out into MMA will fit into your category

    if you have the time to search, check out frank shamrocks debut UFC fight, there is a good example of a fast takedown 4 seconds into the match i believe
    Ive seen a Frank Shamrock highlight that i think has the takedown your talking about in it.

    Ive heard Mark Kerr was a beast ,but have never seen him fight.

    I think good clinch fighters probably have a better chance at taking down the elite level sprawlers than do wrestlers. Ive also noticed that singles seem to be slightly more succesful in mma than doubles. You might not get the end position you want with a single (side control) but they seem to be slightly higher percentage.
  9. HANKtheTANK is offline
    HANKtheTANK's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,177

    Posted On:
    10/31/2006 5:35pm


     Style: Systema & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    good point
    interesting topic...probably not for all, but I am a huge fan of the take down...(used to wrestle in high school)

    singles are a bit easier because it requires less to grab. And its easier to target one leg to hold onto for dear life (as some do) than trying to go for both. Lotta wrestlers probably prefer to get the double, because its better full body control, and settle for the single once the guy sprawls, and ur left with only the closest leg u can grab

    another thing is, the double leg, while requiring a bit more effort to get, also requires more energy, as a lot of times, when a successful double leg is made, it leads to a slam. Some fighters prefer not to waste their energies on the slam, and instead work the single, and either drag or dump the person on the ground without using brute strength, and work for a technical win/submission from there instead

    as i was thinking about this some more, its probably a better question if we ask who are some of the more creative and diverse take down artists out there. Since this topic so far has brought mainly wrestlers into the picture, for obvious reasons to wrestling/take down ability

    I think as far as creativity goes, Sakuraba is near the top of that list. And as someone else mentioned earlier, Karo.
    and a few japanese guys (think from shooto) like Imanari i think have sweeeeeet take downs...u know the ones, that lead straight into leg locks...etc...just watched Imanari's instructional, so its fresh in my mind! =)
  10. Andrew L. is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    83

    Posted On:
    10/31/2006 6:29pm


     Style: Still searching...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HANKtheTANK
    good point
    interesting topic...probably not for all, but I am a huge fan of the take down...(used to wrestle in high school)

    singles are a bit easier because it requires less to grab. And its easier to target one leg to hold onto for dear life (as some do) than trying to go for both. Lotta wrestlers probably prefer to get the double, because its better full body control, and settle for the single once the guy sprawls, and ur left with only the closest leg u can grab

    another thing is, the double leg, while requiring a bit more effort to get, also requires more energy, as a lot of times, when a successful double leg is made, it leads to a slam. Some fighters prefer not to waste their energies on the slam, and instead work the single, and either drag or dump the person on the ground without using brute strength, and work for a technical win/submission from there instead

    as i was thinking about this some more, its probably a better question if we ask who are some of the more creative and diverse take down artists out there. Since this topic so far has brought mainly wrestlers into the picture, for obvious reasons to wrestling/take down ability

    I think as far as creativity goes, Sakuraba is near the top of that list. And as someone else mentioned earlier, Karo.
    and a few japanese guys (think from shooto) like Imanari i think have sweeeeeet take downs...u know the ones, that lead straight into leg locks...etc...just watched Imanari's instructional, so its fresh in my mind! =)
    Yah, you seem to understand what im trying to find out.

    Sakuraba has great takedown skills. His fight with Crocop is a testament to both Crocop's sprawl and Saku's takedowns. Perhaps going straight for the takedown against counter punch/sprawlers is not the way to go. Maybe wait for them to come to you.
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12 345 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.