Why I hate Kyudo

**MEGA JESUS-SAMA** · Posted On: 10/27/2006 10:14pm

The History Channel hasn't been entertaining in ages, these days it's all about lawnmowers and power tools. They apparently ran out of history to talk about.

**Steve** · Posted On: 10/27/2006 10:18pm

I'll stick to the Japanese Tea Ceremony, less chance of being hit with a stray arrow (and having the person who shot me pass his test for his perfect form).

**Fitz** · Posted On: 10/27/2006 10:27pm

Worth reading on the topic of how Kyudo got the reputation outside of Japan is has.

"The Myth of Zen and the Art of Archery" by Yamada Shoji
http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/...rs/pdf/586.pdf

**Sir Ocelot** · Posted On: 10/27/2006 11:07pm

Originally Posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN

Can anyone explain to me how you measure progress in a sport that doesn't emphasize hitting the target?

Good question; maybe that's not t3h r34l kyudo. One of my favorite quotes on the subjects of form, function, and spirituality in martial arts was written by a senior kyudo guy, and it sounds a bit different:

Among those who practice kyudo, there are those who say that in yumi it is not necessary to hit the target, or that all that is necessary is that your form is good; there are even those who say that form doesn't matter, that spirit is the most important thing. Of course, those who have a twisted spirit are a pain in the neck no matter what they do; and practicing yumi with bad form is not good. However, to have good form (shooting technique) and to not hit the target is against nature. Do not be misled by nonsense. If your shooting form is good, accuracy will surely follow. I want you to not forget that missing the target means that something is wrong.

If you practice yumi diligently, you will gain some kind of spiritual benefit. However, kyujutsu is by its nature a physical activity, so if you want to engage in spiritual training, you will get faster results if you do something like zazen rather than archery.

- Saito Chobo

**Steve** · Posted On: 10/27/2006 11:56pm

Kyudo and Kyujutsu are two different things.

As your post explains.

**GRAB MY WRIST** · Posted On: 10/28/2006 12:16am

I remember when I did my graduate business studies my lecturer touched briefly on culture and business practice. The west is objective oriented (results based) whereas the Japanese is process based. This means in a western mindset, as long as I produces results that matches the specification, then I have attain my goals. In the Japanese mindset, as long as you conform to a set process (rules), it will lead to the desired results.

I think this difference in mindset shows very well wrt how kyudo and western archery's goals differ.

GMW

**Steve** · Posted On: 10/28/2006 12:30am

Classic 'which came first: The chicken or the egg?'

Do the ends justify the means, or is it the other way around?

An arrow is meant to kill. The 'means' don't enter into it.

**Sir Ocelot** · Posted On: 10/28/2006 12:33am

Originally Posted by sfe

Kyudo and Kyujutsu are two different things.

Not in this context. Read the translator's note.

From what I've read it seems to me that the idea of a sharp divide between "do" and "jutsu" is in large measure a western phenomenon anyway, and owes a lot to Donn Draeger's influence. I seem to remember reading of at least one koryu kenjutsu teacher describing his art as "kendo" when he wanted to highlight certain aspects. For a discussion with both points of view represented, try here (just something I found in a quick web search; coincidentally, one post has a link back to Bullshido).

**MEGA JESUS-SAMA** · Posted On: 10/28/2006 12:34am

Originally Posted by sfe

Classic 'which came first: The chicken or the egg?'

Do the ends justify the means, or is it the other way around?

An arrow is meant to kill. The 'means' don't enter into it.

The means are important, but there's no definite means; no one has shot a perfect FITA, after all.

But David Barnes, who has an extremely unique bowarm, can come pretty damn close with a 1366. If he were judged on his form, he might not do so well, but the fact that his scores kick ass means it's obviously working.

**Steve** · Posted On: 10/28/2006 1:18am

Originally Posted by Sir Ocelot

Not in this context. Read the translator's note.

From what I've read it seems to me that the idea of a sharp divide between "do" and "jutsu" is in large measure a western phenomenon anyway, and owes a lot to Donn Draeger's influence. I seem to remember reading of at least one koryu kenjutsu teacher describing his art as "kendo" when he wanted to highlight certain aspects.(snip)

Regardless, 'do' and 'jutsu' are two different points of the same thing (again, I highlighted your above quote for emphasis).

I agree that they can be incorporated but the fact of the matter is that 'the way' and the actual ass kicking are two separate things. Hence the Japanese distinction between the two. They compliment each other for sure, but both can be practiced independently if one so desires.

And I also have to say that Draeger didn't create a divide, he explained things in Western terms.