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  1. Niceguy is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2006 10:55pm


     Style: mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    "Flow Grappling" is my mma gym heading towards bullshido?

    Let me start off by saying I have been training at this gym for around 2 years for roughly 6 hours a week and it has improved my skills tremendously.

    Typical class used to do about 1.5 hours of drilling and about .5 hours of sparring per session.

    We have a few pro fighters in our gym, some who have had some success in small local shows and smaller promotions like KOTC.

    Recently my instructor and several students have become supporters of what they call "flow grappling" which has supplanted just regular old no gi grappling sparring. (We still spar standing up as we always have).

    I will describe "flow grappling" as sparring in which you let your opponent work a move against you and then counter it.

    So say I am in someones guard and he goes for an arm bar during a "flow grappling" session, I am supposed to let him get the armbar and then work the escape. Likewise he will let me pass his guard and then I will let him work to get his guard back. As opposed to a regular sparring session where If smell a submission coming I will just pull my arm away or what not.

    The problem I have with this is that we are only supposed to be going at 25% speed and letting our "flow grappling" partners get moves on us that we normally would not. So a new guy is getting armbars on me because I am letting him, as opposed to the normal chain of events of me passing his guard and tapping him out in about a minute or I am lettin newbs escape from my mount, when I would normaly control them for the mount or cross body for the entire 5 min round.

    The problem I have with this "flow grappling" is that it is rehearsed, and not "alive", it doesnt in my opinion teach timing or set up for proper application of submission or escapes against resisting opponents. Which is one of the reason why grappling is so effective anyway is the ability to spar at 100% intensity against a resisting opponent the techniques safely.

    If you stopped sparring in BJJ, it will eventually become just like japanese jui-jitsu, watered down with ineffective techniques that you cant apply against a resisting opponent because you have no timing or set up.

    Recently alot of our fighters have been getting owned on the ground, and while our school has always been know for its striking, I dont think "flow grappling" is helping matters.

    I have been thinking about talking this over with my instructor, but I wanted to get some opinons first.

    Thoughts?
  2. Niceguy is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2006 11:07pm


     Style: mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Villain
    Sounds like a good supplement IMO, but not a replacement.
    Oh I think it has its place, and is useful like 1 weeek right before a fight and a form of "light grappling" as a fighter peaks for his fight, injured fighters, and what not.

    But I know the only way I ever got better was from sparring and drilling technique. I think it was many months before I actually armbarred someone from the guard and it was my sense of set up and timing from the previous months of sparring that allowed me to do it.
  3. OldDog53 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2006 11:52pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Villain
    Sounds like a good supplement IMO, but not a replacement.
    Ditto. First saw this on a Roy Harris DVD and thought what the heck, is this aikido?

    But as a variation of regular drilling it sounds great, and wish we did it more.

    What we do instead, is to start introducing resistance points into our drilling. As the recipient of a technique or move, you start to feel where a shift in posture or slightly repositionsing your limbs or hips might make it harder for the person initiating the drill to pull it off. So you start to "cheat" and make it tougher, but not impossible, for your partner to do the drill, you try to force your partner to be cleaner in the application or to figure out a work-around. This got me about 6" into the air on a practice sweep that otherwise would have been much less dramatic, just a tip over onto the mat. Sometimes if you resist and THEN it works...it works pretty well indeed.

    Then of course the instructor says, "and if he posts his arm here" which completely changes the drill and and the move gets worked in an altogether different way. I assume this is the way most gyms (except maybe Roy Harris's) practice since my club is pretty middle of the road.

    Actually I just wish we had a full hour of drilling every class, but then we'd have a lot longer class. Right now conditioning in the beginning and rolling at the end take up a lot of time.
  4. JohnnyS is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2006 12:05am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think you'd want to replace proper hard rolling, but this type of training definitely has its place. I'd ratchet up the intensity to 60-70% though.
    This type of training can help to:
    * Give you a chance to try new things without fear of a beatdown if you mess up
    * Put together combinations
    * Give you mileage on the ground i.e. you get to try and see lots of different positions rather than sticking to one position like you mentioned above
    * See what's going on. This is extremely important. A lot of beginners will go hard in their grapple but because they are grappling so fast they don't see opportunities or mistakes

    I will also disagree that your timing would have improved as quickly will full intensity grappling than if you start slowly and then increase the resistance and speed. Timing comes from having seen something happen before and recognising a pattern. You will recognise the pattern faster if you slow things down first.
  5. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2006 1:35am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We did this for newaza in judo last week, and I've done it as a BJJ warmup at 30% intensity. Is it replacing your regualar 100% sparring? Maybe then it's bullshido, but it's a valid training tool for reasons outlined by JonnyS. To get the most out of it (and any reduced intensity sparring) you need a partner that can really work with you. I've done this drill and had partners go 100% for the submission which ruins the drill.
  6. nbo10 is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2006 10:41am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We do this just to warm up some times.
  7. steve_990 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2006 11:01am


     Style: Jiu-Jitsu, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with everything that JohnnyS said and will add this:

    - When you flow grapple, you will be placed into positions that you will usually not be able to get out of in a 100% match, it will really help you gain understanding for how to get out of the situation. Plus when you are in a position where you rely on one escape due to habbit, it will let you try other escapes that you know, but are less comfortable with.

    Having said that, I think if your club is just doing flow grappling ALL the time, then you should get out and find a place that spars 100% as well. It definately has it's place though. Maybe talk to the instructor, maybe he has plans for it... something like flow grappling for a month to break everyone's bad habbits or something. Who knows.

    Asking him is the best way to find out :)
  8. Boyd is offline
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    OFFICIAL Mayor of Cwcville

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2006 11:04am

    supporting member
     Style: Electricity, Speed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So wait, are you saying your school has completely replaced free sparring with flow drills? Or is there just an increased emphasis?
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

    2) My name is not Ian Brandon Something.

    3) Kacey is coming with me now. I have stolen her from the other Christian Weston Chandler.

    REMINDER: I am still the one and only true creator of sonichu and rosechu electric hedgehog pokemon
  9. Mjelva is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2006 2:53pm


     Style: BJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We've been doing this type of exercise for as long as I've been at our gym. Possibly because we're under Roy Harris.
    I like it.

    But if it ever were to replace regular rolling, I'd quit.
  10. Bizzaro Root is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2006 3:23pm


     Style: Gracie Barra Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    usely this type of grappling happens when you grappling someone of a higher belt. They concide a small amount of mistakes and transition to other positions. sometimes its a good learning experience but it can give false since of security, thats when he snaps the sub on a brings you back to reality. not a replacement as siad before.
    Eduardo "Why'd you stop."

    Me "I was kicked in the head by the guys sparring next to me."

    Eduardo "Ino what happened but i didnt say you could stop."

    Me "Um.. I guess I keep going."

    Eduardo "You dont stop until i say stop, you dont get tired until i say your tired, keep going."


    Originally posted by Ralek
    My cousin gave me some tapes of him doing tkd. I learned from those tapes. When I beat up an Akido instructor, and made him take rest breaks, I used TKD. I learned Bjj from watching ufc and pride and then I copied them and wrestled my cousin for practice. I choked him out and he tapped.
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