232625 Bullies, 3913 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 20
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. PoleFighter is offline

    Professional Swede

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    1,155

    Posted On:
    10/24/2006 6:00am


     Style: Sandbagged BJJ white belt

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Maximizing what you get out of rolling

    I was thinking about this the other day: how do you get the most out of the sparring sessions at your gym? I think this is an issue that should be adressed, because I feel like so many of my training partners are always "rolling to win," and while that has its benefits I'm not sure it's the best use of their training time. What made me think about this was one guy who literally locked me into the top position in side mount, while he was on the bottom. Afterwards I asked him why, and he replied "so you coudln't sub me." WTF?

    Another example: I know guys with really good guards but weak passing games, that ALWAYS pull guard, and never try to get top position. This means that while their guards are difficult to pass, when they sweep me and I get to half guard, I often sweep them in return and get the sub. Shouldn't they be putting more time into working their passing game?

    This is how I do it:

    Training partners that I consider so much weaker than myself that they pose zero threat: I'm basically a nice guy and help them with everything I can. In return I experiment with new techniques or give them good positions (although I make them work for it) and escape. For example, there is a man (maybe mid to late fifties) who can't do anything to me unless I let him. However, for some reason, this guy has a hellish side mount. He feels like a ton of bricks. So why spend the entire session sweeping and submitting him when I could use that absolutely insane amount of pressure he can put on me from side mount to practice my escapes?

    Training partners that I can tap if I put some effort in: I play to my weakness and their strengths. I.e. if I think someone has a strong passing game, I will pull guard, because that is my weakest area, and refrain from using the guards that I feel comfortable in, like half guard. This makes for a more challenging roll. Sometimes I get tapped because of this, but I feel it's worth it in the long run because it will make me more well rounded. I also give up positons sometimes.

    Training partners that I consider my equal or a bit better: I will play to my own strength, which is guard passing. I generally roll more competitively, but with control, of course, because this is training not competition.

    Training partners that destroy me at will: I go slow so they can observe my game, point out major errors and I can observe how they do things. I've learnt TONS this way. I always try to ask at least one question afterwards.

    I also gradually move techniques up the ladder, so to speak. A new technique starts out at the weaker training partners, and I then gradually move it up until I start using it against training partners of similar skills.

    So, any thoughts on this?
    Last edited by PoleFighter; 10/24/2006 6:18am at .
    I pointed at him [the panhandler], bringing my rear hand up in a subtle approximation of the double Wu Sau guard that is the default hand position in Wing Chun Kung Fu.

    "Step away," I hissed.
    -Phil Elmore
  2. IzzyDaHedgehog is offline

    Didn't so much Fall as Saunter Vaguely Downwards

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Ooooooklahoma!!!
    Posts
    1,591

    Posted On:
    10/24/2006 7:13am


     Style: Ex-TKD, BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Aside from how to roll with people of a specific skill level, always try to roll with people who are built differently and have different temperments. A 200 lb ex-wrestler will push your game in different ways than a skinny 145 lb high school kid.

    Also, while rolling newer people will help you work your submission game sometimes, try to roll with better/tougher people as much as you can.
    sudo make me a sandwich!
  3. Cassius is offline
    Cassius's Avatar

    Moderator

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    7,003

    Posted On:
    10/24/2006 6:17pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've probably posted this a million times, but I think it should be brought up every single time we talk about maximizing gain from rolling: Roll with a plan.

    By this, I mean several things. First, you should always have in mind a few techniques to be working on. You're not just rolling to see who wins. If you're weak at armbars from the guard, continuously attempt them. If you suck at side control escapes, swallow your pride and work on side control escapes. Try to escape, and if you get submitted, oh well.

    Think of class rolls as your laboratory. You find out what you can and can't do in a controlled setting, and work on optimizing your output.

    Second: Think. There are active learners and there are passive learners. Fucking pay attention to what your entire body is doing. Pay attention to your opponent. Figure out what he's doing, see what does and doesn't work, try to find out why . . . etc.

    Third: This is something you've already covered. Roll with different skill levels and body times. Constantly shake things up. Pay attention to how people with different levels of experience and body shapes roll.

    Fourth: Learn how to control the pace. See what it takes to slow a match down or speed it up. THIS IS IMPORTANT.

    Fifth: Do your goddamned homework. Come home from class and figure out what worked and what didn't. Try to visualize the techniques you learned tonight. Try to remember why things did and didn't work, and come up with solutions for how to fix your problems. Make a plan for the next time you train.

    Sixth: Pay attention to what is going on in the grappling community. You'll learn things better when you personalize the sport.

    If you do these things (and there are others, but I'm too lazy to keep thinking up tasks), if you get actively involved in your rolling instead of just "phoning it in" by trying to win the same three ways all the time, you'll get better faster.
    Last edited by Cassius; 10/24/2006 6:21pm at .
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  4. Camus is offline

    Middleweight

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    1,738

    Posted On:
    10/24/2006 7:18pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Some ideas, in no particular order, repeats of earlier posters highly likely:

    -TRY CRAZY ****! No, I don't mean retarded lockflow **** or noobish faggotry like trying to sub your partner by squeezing you guard REALLY HARD. What I mean is, well, a couple things:

    i. You are probably rolling with the same half a dozen to dozen guys (depending on where you train of course) most of the time. Your rolls will start to often follow very similar trends after awhile Say one guy often gives up position to you to go after subs because he has an amazing defence: After awhile, if your skill is close, this might stagnate to you dominating positionally, with him going for occasional sub attempts like heel-hook from under mount, which you eventually get better at escaping and you fight each other to a standstill almost everytime.

    ii. When you go and train at other schools you'll often find that their students roll very differently than at your school. This could play either way, but you'll find that bringing back some new techs and tactics to your school ends up giving you a noticeable advantage over your rolling partners. Then, of course, you end up helping them and the training pool as a whole. INNOVATION IS GOOD. If it ends up that your school has the counter to the **** you brought back, you'll quickely learn it, probably the hard way. Again, either way, everyone learns.

    iii. Lots of the somewhat more eccentric subs and positions are eccentric exactly because they are 'dangerous' (in terms of you being tapped or positionally dominated; not necessarily to your health) You can learn alot from this, but it's often scary at first, so you have to man up to it. Alot of leg locks (which I love) are, in my opinion, somewhat scary at first, because they often involve 'punishment' when you fail. If you opponent stands up to thwart your heel-hook or manages to get his knee at a safe angle during your kneebar, he can often bear down on your and crush you rather mercilessly as you exhaust yourself trying to fight his weight off and the sub. More truely eccentric moves involve ever more risk, even if you are highly proficient at them. Just because it gets you beat up the first week you play with it doesn't mean it's a crappy technique that 'doesn't work' for you. Kimura from side-mount on little guys isn't going to teach you much.

    -ROLL WITH NOOBS! Especially physically-fit ones, maybe previous non-BJJ grappling experience, even better if they are alot bigger. Your technique is much different against:

    i. People who don't train with you and/or at your school

    ii. People of different size, usually this means more when they're alot bigger as with smaller guys you tend to have the advantage of imposing your game, but that's not always the case. I have been rudely surprised by little guys performing strange feats I never had to deal with rolling with my much larger partners.

    iii. Also, as a intermediate student, you have a duty to 'defend the mat' while keeping the noobs safe from rolling too much and too crazy with each other, especially if they are mat spazzers. While you still might get hurt, you have a much smaller chance than another noob and also have the option of 'regulating' them if they get out of hand by no longer letting them into the game and mercilessly stomping them.

    -ROLL WITH GUYS WITH CAN STOMP YOU! Preferably because they have superior technique, rather than genetics, but take what you can get.

    i. These guys will KILL YOUR EGO. This is very important as, often, you might go a week or so of dominating your partners, especially if you are one of the more talented people at your experience-level. This HURTS YOUR TRAINING even if it might give you good confidence because you, maybe even subconciously, become concerned with protecting your 'record' by not being tapped and therefore looking at every roll as a pseudo-match, instead of experimenting and learning.

    ii. Because they are confident in their ability to stomp you at will and you are confident in your ability to be stomped, the roll will usually be much more educational as you are 'let into the game'. Whether this turns into a slow, technical match, with brief periods of explosion and long, static 'thinking pauses' or a sweet-looking, fast-paced, yet relaxed athletic roll depends on the dynamics of you and the dude who can stomp you, but either will be extremely good for your game.

    -ROLL WITH GUYS YOUR LEVEL!

    i. These will be your most competative rolls usually, for obvious reasons. You will measure your pace against these guys, who will, obviously, also progress, this can be good for the competative motivational nature, but you might need to occasional ego-boost from stomping noobs and that's OK

    ii. I think it's fair to roll conservative with these guys is you have access to other guys much better or worse than you. In other words, don't be too compliant and don't give up anything more than you would in a comp. Obviously, don't look at this as more than a roll, but roll like you would if it were 'for the money' in terms of your style and strengths.

    **** AROUND WITH PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF PRACTICE!

    i. Bullshit like laying on your back while watching tv and then entangling your girlfriend in your BJJ-spider legs without using your hands at all while all she trys to do is get away isn't exactly 'pressure testing', but it will up your coordination and give you practice outside of the mat without tiring you or otherwise messing up your training schedule.

    ii. Be physical with people who won't call the police about it. Grab your friend and start pounding on him jokingly; see what he does to escape. Again, you get some physcial activity in your everyday life and keeps training on your mind.

    ROLL ALL THE FUCKING TIME
  5. MartialArtN00b is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    334

    Posted On:
    10/24/2006 11:54pm


     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I now mostly spar with the intention of trying what was taught in class.

    Because its funny to catch your opponent with techniques shown during the same class.

    Unfortunately, its mostly my instructor laughing as he powns me with the techniques he taught me 10 minutes ago.

    Anyways, it also cements the class time in memory better. I mean what better way to learn an eccentric technique than getting powned 10 times trying to execute the technique. I mean, its bad during the same class. But do it in 2 weeks, and your chances to pull it off increases dramatically as the other guy forgets about it.
  6. chingythingy is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,166

    Posted On:
    10/25/2006 1:10am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I try to vary it up on different days. Some days I want to work top game, others bottom. Lately I haven't been in the cerebral trying to plan out 3 moves ahead mode, but more trying to flow and take what I'm given. If I run into something I have trouble with, finishing, escapes, attacks, etc. I make a mental note and try and drill it with someone after rolling finishes.
  7. DDale is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Reading UK
    Posts
    171

    Posted On:
    10/25/2006 10:23am


     Style: Sub Westling, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PoleFighter
    So, any thoughts on this?
    It makes absolute sense to me. Once I relaised I could beat some people I started to vary what stuf I tried each session and tried heavily working on whatever I was worst at.

    For example for a good while Id fall on my back and let people who were ok but not up to my standard see what they could do and Id try to sweep them using as little strength as possible. This eventually led to my sweeps being feared by training partners who are far better than me in othter areas.

    Sometimes I try retarded stuff like turtleing up for no reason just to see what happens and giving people my foot just to see if I can get out of the heel hook.
  8. Teh El Macho is offline
    Teh El Macho's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Porcupine/Hollywood, FL & Parmistan via Elbonia
    Posts
    11,762

    Posted On:
    10/25/2006 11:33am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DDale
    It makes absolute sense to me. Once I relaised I could beat some people I started to vary what stuf I tried each session and tried heavily working on whatever I was worst at.

    For example for a good while Id fall on my back and let people who were ok but not up to my standard see what they could do and Id try to sweep them using as little strength as possible. This eventually led to my sweeps being feared by training partners who are far better than me in othter areas.

    Sometimes I try retarded stuff like turtleing up for no reason just to see what happens and giving people my foot just to see if I can get out of the heel hook.
    He he, I like to do that as well, with the intention of getting up (and force them to stand up), or to see how to get them off by back when they take it. It almost never works, but whatever.

    As I get to know the other pple on the mat better, I feel more comfortable, and less affraid to roll and push the pace and be more aggressive. I'm actually looking forward to get submitted because each time it's different.

    I try to make mental notes about everything that happens, preferably as it is happening. Then I try some quick Q&A with whoever I'm rolling with. And if there is something I clearly remember, I try to write it in a log as metodically detailed as possible. It may take me an hour or more just to write the details the way I'd like somebody to explain the to me. It takes time to log stuff, but it's worth it.

    Details, details, metodical precious fucking details. That seems to work best for me.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 10/25/2006 11:36am at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  9. MartialArtN00b is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    334

    Posted On:
    10/25/2006 12:45pm


     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have to admit, keeping a log helps. But its also time consuming.

    At the beginning, id draw every techniques ive learned in class. Putting it little side notes.
    For every steps of a technique, id have a front/side/top view.

    1 hour of drawing everyday.

    I kept at it for a couple of week.

    I think the best part of it, is that afterwards, even after two months of not touching my log book, i only needed to flip the pages to have a refresher.

    I should start logging again.
  10. Teh El Macho is offline
    Teh El Macho's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Porcupine/Hollywood, FL & Parmistan via Elbonia
    Posts
    11,762

    Posted On:
    10/25/2006 1:07pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Meh, I tried the drawing stuff, but it's too time consuming. I better stick to write them in notepad or in my bullshido log. The nice thing about writing the logs in a PC is that you can edit it, adding details and corrections. For me, it has to be very detailed, verbosed and mechanical. By the time I finish writing it, it's in my head and I can remember better when rolling.

    What helps me is to write my log right after class, when it's fresh in my mind. The bad part is that I may stay late at night trying to type it down until I'm satisfied with it.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.