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  1. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 10:31am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Choosing a 9mm Pistol

    This post started as a response to someone's reply to my off-topic post in "What gun do I need? Also, survivalism!" To atone for my previous transgression, I've started this thread in hopes of getting some assistance.

    Due to recent events, I plan to buy this weapon in the next month or so. Ordered from least to most expensive, all fees included, here are the pistols I'm considering:
    1. Taurus 24/7 Pro 4" ($399)
    2. GLOCK 19 ($492.66)
    3. Springfield XD 4" w/Heine sights, 2006 package ($573.99)

    Some might say they're listed by increasing desirablity, the only one I've fired is the Glock. I don't like the trigger pull on the Glock, its roughness plays into the spasticity of my hands. My local shooting range only rents Glocks (if you want to rent a semi-auto in 9mm), but there's a range about 20 miles away that might rent a wider array of pistols. I plan to contact them soon.

    I'm primarily looking for reasons not to get the Taurus, apart from its issue with jamming. I've got the story on the jams, and it seems I've got the fix too.

    Other than that, I'd like to hear people's opinions of actually shooting each gun. Ergonomics, ease of aiming, and trigger characteristics are what I'm looking for at this point. Some time in the next couple of weeks I'm going to visit an epic gun shop to get my hands on the latter two guns, though I don't expect to buy them there.

    Finally, I'd like to know what you folks think about frangible ammunition. I'm thinking of loading frangible rounds for home defense to avoid overpenetration. This will be a major concern in about a year when I move into an apartment. My primary interest is how well such ammo cycles in a semi-automatic. I've looked at the stuff from International Cartridge Corporation, but that's pretty much all the frangible I'm come across so far.
  2. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 10:49am

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    People rave about the XDs, but I really like the new Beretta PX4 Storm. It's modular, can be adjusted to left or right handed carry, and just looks cool.

    But why are you sold on 9mm? Are you going to be shooting so much that ammo cost is a factor?
  3. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 11:48am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    People rave about the XDs, but I really like the new Beretta PX4 Storm. It's modular, can be adjusted to left or right handed carry, and just looks cool.

    But why are you sold on 9mm? Are you going to be shooting so much that ammo cost is a factor?
    Regarding 9mm, I'll start by quoting from my posts in Improving One's Ability to Shoot:
    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian
    I fired a Glock 19 that day and the recoil of a 9mm is as much as my jumpy self can take. I was startled every time someone else on range fired, so I learned to steady myself before I learned any kind of marksmanship. [...] I focused on steadying the gun in my shaky hands, primarily using breath control. [...] Internal cranial bleeding during the course of my premature birth has fucked me up in a number of ways, one of which is a hypersensitive startle reflex.
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    I seriously doubt the recoil of the 9mm is making Robstafarian lose control. There are very few people in this world who can't shoot .40, .45, 10mm and .44 Magnum in reasonable-sized guns IF they are given the chance to get used to the flash and the noise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian
    I don't think it's the recoil, I think it's my startle reflex exaggerating the recoil. I can usually control it enough to maintain a reasonable amount of control (i.e. not throwing or dropping a glass I'm holding), but not fine control (i.e. more often than not the contents of the glass are ejected). [...] Sorry, I should have provided a transition for the context. That bit was meant to illustrate the amount of static hand control I have when startled.
    As far as cost goes, I do plan to shoot quite a bit in the first year of ownership to train in both the use and the upkeep of the weapon. I am a student looking at 4 or 5 more years of college, so I don't want to lock myself into expensive ammo.

    Carry doesn't matter to me at this point, I'm buying this for home defense. It takes a lot for me to get to my breaking point and stop being a peacenik, and what I do at that point comes down to the degree of danger. I hope that training BJJ will allow a "go to" weapon for Defcon 1-3, but when things really go to hell I want to have a much more powerful (and tactically distinct) "go to" weapon. I'd like to think that the only time I'd be forced to act in such a situation is when it happens in my own home (i.e. home invasion). In any case, I know full well that at this phase of my physicality CCW just means my gun will be used against me.

    After a cursory search it looks like I can get a PX4 Storm for $548.99. I'll search for reviews on it now, I'd appreicate all the information anyone has to give me at this point. I feel weird planning to buy a gun, it goes against my nature, but I'm quite realistic in a strategic sense and I realize it must be done.
  4. chemistry is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 3:14pm


     Style: Shotokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you want to smooth out the trigger pull of the Glock, you can always replace the standard trigger connector with the 3.5# part. This will not affect the power of the striker pin at all, since you are not replacing the springs.
  5. Hawkeye is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 4:01pm

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     Style: Firearms, Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If yer absolutely convinced on going 9mm and don't like glock, just go with the springfield xd. Also you could look a used HK USPc or a SIG 226 in your price range. And **** that frangible ammunition ****. Just go with hollowpoint
    "We spoke to them in the only language they understood: the machine gun"
  6. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 4:50pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by chemistry
    If you want to smooth out the trigger pull of the Glock, you can always replace the standard trigger connector with the 3.5# part. This will not affect the power of the striker pin at all, since you are not replacing the springs.
    I don't want a trigger pull that light, I don't trust my hands enough. I figure with a SA/DA configuration I can fire as single action if I want less resistance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye
    If yer absolutely convinced on going 9mm and don't like glock, just go with the springfield xd. Also you could look a used HK USPc or a SIG 226 in your price range. And **** that frangible ammunition ****. Just go with hollowpoint
    What's wrong with frangible? Your military tag carries some weight, but I'm looking for as much information as possible. Is my best bet at preventing overpenetration really subsonic JHP?

    I'm looking up the Beretta PX4 Storm right now, looks great. Phrost, mind giving a testimonial?

    I may go back to the range and try a GLOCK 23, not sure when that might happen though. Can anyone characterize the recoil of .40 versus 9mm? For reference, I previously shot 115gr. American Eagle FMJ from a GLOCK 19.
  7. Roaming East is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 5:35pm


     Style: MCMAP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Talk to some EMT guys. Frangible ammo produces a nasty looking wound but it lacks proper penetration and permant wound channeling. So basically you have a round that doesnt cause a deep enough channel to promote extensive bleeding or a carries enough mass to at leastt leave a decent amount of internal damage. If your packing a 9mm its absolutly imperative that you get high quality ammo in order to make up for the size discrepancy and its hard to beat JHP in that performance range.

    Of the choices listed, the real battle is between the Glock and the XD and this comes down to fit. The XD has a classic 1911 style grip that most folks find comfortable and a trigger a little different from the Glock so if the Glock doesnt feel right the XD in all liklihood will. I would shy away from the Beretta at the moment because its upgradeability is finicky. Parts arent as widespread or as cheap as they are with the Glock or XD and if you start looking for more mags, a holster or a new extractor (once youve started putting mileage on your gun) it wont be easy to swing to the local gunnybunny and buy a replacement.

    The recoil in a .40 is definatly more noticeable than in a 9mm. I suggest staying away from .40 in glocks any way as the vast majority of kB (kaboom/ blow ups) happen in .40 glocks. Glocks arent well suited to the high pressure the bullet causes. .40 recoil is a lot more snappy. whereas a .45 has a slow thump feel to it. a .40 often feels like a short but violent pop in the hand. 9mm recoil is easily manageable especially in the Glock.

    I own a USP in .40 and it has probably the best recoil reduction possible for a handgun and the .40 still takes a fair bit of practice to learn to control and exploit in that design. If you dont intend to put at least 1000 rounds down the range every 6 months to stay profiecient, stick with the 9mm. Its a cheaper ammo anyway
  8. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 5:58pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming East
    Talk to some EMT guys. Frangible ammo produces a nasty looking wound but it lacks proper penetration and permant wound channeling. So basically you have a round that doesnt cause a deep enough channel to promote extensive bleeding or a carries enough mass to at leastt leave a decent amount of internal damage. If your packing a 9mm its absolutly imperative that you get high quality ammo in order to make up for the size discrepancy and its hard to beat JHP in that performance range.

    Of the choices listed, the real battle is between the Glock and the XD and this comes down to fit. The XD has a classic 1911 style grip that most folks find comfortable and a trigger a little different from the Glock so if the Glock doesnt feel right the XD in all liklihood will. I would shy away from the Beretta at the moment because its upgradeability is finicky. Parts arent as widespread or as cheap as they are with the Glock or XD and if you start looking for more mags, a holster or a new extractor (once youve started putting mileage on your gun) it wont be easy to swing to the local gunnybunny and buy a replacement.

    The recoil in a .40 is definatly more noticeable than in a 9mm. I suggest staying away from .40 in glocks any way as the vast majority of kB (kaboom/ blow ups) happen in .40 glocks. Glocks arent well suited to the high pressure the bullet causes. .40 recoil is a lot more snappy. whereas a .45 has a slow thump feel to it. a .40 often feels like a short but violent pop in the hand. 9mm recoil is easily manageable especially in the Glock.

    I own a USP in .40 and it has probably the best recoil reduction possible for a handgun and the .40 still takes a fair bit of practice to learn to control and exploit in that design. If you dont intend to put at least 1000 rounds down the range every 6 months to stay profiecient, stick with the 9mm. Its a cheaper ammo anyway
    Your points are well taken, I'll forget about .40 and frangible ammo. Anyone have experience with shooting 147gr. 9mm? 147gr. is not only the biggest 9mm I've found, it's also the only subsonic I've found.

    On the other hand, I have every reason to expect that the "epic" gun shop I mentioned will be able to support my PX4 Storm (if I decide to get it). People in my area are probably familiar with it, Green Top Hunting & Fishing. Their site is no great shakes, but the place is so beautiful I've gone twice just to look around and talk. Great guys, they didn't mind a bit.
  9. Roaming East is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 8:52pm


     Style: MCMAP

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    PX4 is a fine pistol. Just expect to pay a premium for accessories. 35-40 bucks a magazine for a weapon will start to hit kinda hard once you need new ones. I assume your going with the DAO version
  10. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 9:17pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm actually thinking about the Type F, which is SA/DA with a manual safety.

    The gun comes with three 17 round mags, though some sellers remove the third mag. It is said that CDNN does this, but two mags should be enough for me and their $439 price puts the weapon well under $500 by the time I pick it up. I imagine that by the time I'm looking for accessories they'll be cheaper.
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